4.Eric Johnson — Direct/Cross (Part 1)

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am. My name is Eric Johnson. Spell the last name, J-o-h-n-s-o-n.

ERIC JOHNSON: I am currently the Director of Investigations for the Mississippi Department of Human Service in the State of Mississippi.

ERIC JOHNSON: I've been with the Mississippi Department of Human Services about four months. I am the Director of the State investigations. We have about 10 to 15 investigators around the state and they primarily deal with the Mississippi Department of Human Services, day in and day out functions.

ERIC JOHNSON: I am retired from the Mississippi Department of Public Safety where I served seven years as a State Trooper and the later part of my career of 25 years was spent in the Mississippi Bureau of Investigation, which is much like your SLED here. It's a state police agency. I obtained the rank of lieutenant, or regional supervisor.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: On the date in question, I received a phone call that night from Undersheriff Marty Patterson in Smith County. Smith County was within my geographical region for the State of Mississippi. I had nine counties and Smith County was one of those counties. I had four other agents that were working out of my MBI office, or the Department of Public Safety Trooper Office. And Marty Patterson, Undersheriff Patterson, called me that evening and briefed me on what he had. He had two deputies out on a driver's license checkpoint. They had a vehicle on the shoulder with South Carolina plates. The driver was alone. There were five children that were unaccounted for and he would like MBI's assistance and MBI Crime Scene Unit assistance, as well.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I did do that.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did. That night, after I spoke to Undersheriff Patterson, I contacted Ms. Jones and involved her with what we had. In turn, she also talked to Undersheriff Patterson and we agreed that the vehicle should be taken and secured in an indoor facility to preserve any evidence that may be in the vehicle. And we also requested that a law enforcement officer or a deputy sit on that vehicle and preserve the integrity of anything that may be found in there.

ERIC JOHNSON: The next day was the 7th.

ERIC JOHNSON: On the morning of the 7th, I believe it was a Sunday, Stacy had agreed that she would report over there. When she got there, it was some 40 miles from my residence on the weekend. And she called me and she said, I think you need to come over here and look at this vehicle yourself. So that's when I traveled to Smith County to meet Ms. Jones and examine the vehicle myself.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct, Counselor. She was.

ERIC JOHNSON: Immediately.

ERIC JOHNSON: Your Honor, may I refer to my notes?

ERIC JOHNSON: Thank you, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Counselor, based on my documentation that I made, that should be a Galaxy Note 3 cellular telephone, black in color, with a serial number indicative of what is written by Ms. Jones' handwriting on this piece of evidence.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: No, sir. I did not. The only -- the only thing that I would have done is I would have confirmed the serial number on this device so we could accurately log what we had. So I would have obtained that prior to Ms. Jones sealing and labeling the piece of evidence.

ERIC JOHNSON: As I recall, that day became very busy, as you could imagine, with us coordinating with South Carolina in trying to ascertain the whereabouts of these children and their well-being. One of my functions and roles that I took on is I prepared search warrants. Based on the electronics retrieved from the black SUV driven by Mr. Timothy Jones, there was a possibility that there could be forensic value that could have some sort of clue. I immediately began to draft search warrants. And in turn contacted our Jackson field office FBI agent that I had a contact for to see if the FBI could immediately start analyzing some of this to see if there was any type of value of evidence that we could pull up, whether it be, you know, a GPS internally in the phone that could show where it's been, if there was any other possible evidence that could be beneficial and helpful in locating the children.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do. I turned the -- this particular phone over to Special Agent Cynthia Opie with the Jackson field office FBI.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do. I do.

ERIC JOHNSON: If I could refer to my notes, I would be glad to.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. Reading on page two of my report that I wrote for this case. At the bottom, it says, "Some documents found in the passenger seat inside of the Cadillac. It appears to be handwritten notes on a clipboard that stated, "Head to campground, melt bodies down -- " correction, "melt bodies, sand to dust or small pieces. Day one, burn bodies. Day two, sand down bones. Day three, MB", initials, and "dissolve and discard".

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: It is, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: As I recall, on that Walmart receipt, there were certain items that I noted that appeared to be of some concern to me. If I had a copy of that -- and I may have one in my file. Muriatic acid, as I recall off the top of my head, a saw, jab Saw, maybe.

ERIC JOHNSON: Do you have a copy?

ERIC JOHNSON: State's 111. Thank you, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do recognize this Walmart receipt.

ERIC JOHNSON: It is, sir. This, is indicative of the dust mask, the 3M goggles, the Jab Saw, the saw blades, the multi-saw pack, muriatic acid, a five gallon pail. This is a photographic copy of the receipt that I saw on the day in question in Smith County, Mississippi.

ERIC JOHNSON: I have. I had seen the condition of the vehicle after Ms. Jones, our crime scene analyst, had arrived there and looked at it and contacted me. As I stated previously, I immediately went to the Smith County area where the vehicle was at.

ERIC JOHNSON: That is a correct statement, Counselor. We had, you know, we had great concerns for the welfare of the children, and at that point we didn't know if the children were dead or alive.

ERIC JOHNSON: I'm sorry?

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: We did, Counselor. And it's been almost five years, ladies and gentlemen, and I don't remember if I called him, how that got started. But at some point I did talk to Mr. Timothy Jones, Sr. who resides in Amory, Mississippi.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did, along with his wife.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: No. Those were the only persons in the room at the time of the interview.

ERIC JOHNSON: I can, sir. On Sunday, September the 7th of 2014, we sat down with Timothy Jones, Jr. at approximately 18:04 hours, 6:04 p.m. in the afternoon.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I'm looking at Exhibits 24 and 26. State's Exhibits.

ERIC JOHNSON: Court's Exhibits. Okay. Yes, sir. Both of these I am familiar with, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, but it doesn't matter now. It has nothing to do with --

ERIC JOHNSON: That would be fine. Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I can, Counselor. In Smith County, in Raleigh, Mississippi, it's an old county seat Court House. I'm not sure how old it is, but a two-story building. And in the upstairs in the Court House on either side of this facility is kind of a conference room, break room. And this was the break room on the second floor of the Smith County Courthouse located in Raleigh, Mississippi. Kind of an out of the way area to sit down and talk. The jail is just mere feet away from the Court House.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: That is correct. Not to scale.

ERIC JOHNSON: May I step down, Your Honor? I can't see it that well. (Whereupon, the witness stepped down from the witness stand.)

ERIC JOHNSON: The room is approximately 14-by-20 in size, shape and size. And in there is one door in, a table area, a couch along this area, a center conference table in the break room with some chairs around it, a sink on this end, and then a couple of windows, like I said, on the second floor.

ERIC JOHNSON: Thank you. Do you need to, shall I?

ERIC JOHNSON: Thank you, sir. (Whereupon, the witness returned to the witness stand.)

ERIC JOHNSON: Counselor, are you referring to the actual interview with Mr. Tim Jones, Jr. and where we were at in proportion to the room?

ERIC JOHNSON: Okay. We were already in the room. Tim Jones Sr. and his wife and the Sheriff and I, I believe, and Undersheriff Patterson, we all talked about it. And, quite frankly, that's not a common tactic that you would take a parent or a friend or someone else with someone in there. But under the circumstances that we were dealing with, we felt that maybe he would be more comfortable, he would at least give us some information that would be beneficial to law enforcement either in Mississippi or South Carolina or in between that could give us some sort of a direction of where these children were and how we could attend to their needs and get to them -- find them, in essence. So we talked to Mr. Jones, Sr. and he was more than willing, helpful, concerned grandfather, very much so, and he accompanied us to the room. And I think we were already in the room when Timothy Jones, Jr. was brought into the room.

ERIC JOHNSON: As I recall, he had a few moments to talk to his, naturally, he sees his father there. So he talks with his father some. And after a few moments of, you know, chit-chat and talking, letting them talk, I began to talk to him. And one of the first things that I had to do as a law enforcement officer was advise him of his constitutional rights, his Miranda rights.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do, Counselor. This looks like the original Miranda form that I read to Mr. Jones on the night in question.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Thank you, Your Honor. (Whereupon, the witness stepped down from the witness stand.)

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: A Miranda form is an advice of rights form. Every law enforcement agency in the nation uses it. Basically, it's your constitutional rights as a private citizen and it protects us as law enforcement to makes sure that we do our job correctly and by the law. It's something we read to advise them of their constitutional rights, as seen here.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's my handwriting.

ERIC JOHNSON: As you can see, ladies and gentlemen, I entered the suspect -- the Defendant's name, Mr. Timothy Ray Jones, Jr., the address he provided, his Social Security Number, his date of birth, his educational background, and that would be our Mississippi Bureau of Investigation case number.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's my handwriting as well. We were at the Smith County Sheriff's Department. This is the date and this is the time that I started the advice of rights.

ERIC JOHNSON: In reference to this case of Mr. Jones, I began reading these advice of rights. There's two parts to a rights form. You have the advice of rights and you have the waiver of rights at the bottom and on our Mississippi Bureau of Investigation form that we use in Mississippi, you can sign it just at the bottom. But in this particular form, there's no different. I began to read the rights to him, as you can see, "Before we ask any questions, you must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in court." And at some point, as I was advising Mr. Jones of his rights, he took the page from me and said, "I can read", and read it very loudly to us in the room. He read the entire form from top to bottom to include the waiver of rights. And then, this scribble was what he produced as a signature regarding the advice of rights form. As you can see, I signed it as read by, and then witnessed by Sheriff Charlie Crumpton and the time, about two minutes to inform. But Mr. Jones took the form and read it top to bottom to us.

ERIC JOHNSON: Thank you, Counselor. (Whereupon, the witness returned to the witness stand.)

ERIC JOHNSON: In reference to Mr. Jones --

ERIC JOHNSON: -- Jr.? We were in a relatively cool room and environment. In this time of year in South Mississippi, and I'm assuming in South Carolina it's pretty warm, too, in the summertime, as well. We had the air turned down pretty cool. He had on a orange jumpsuit, which is policy of the Sheriff's Department there. If someone's booked in, they have the orange jumpsuit, the flip-flops and things of that nature. And his hair wasn't real long. Maybe, my length. Maybe, a little longer, but he was sweating profusely. To the point that I have never seen just beads of sweat that appeared to be on the end of every hair on his head. Very sweaty.

ERIC JOHNSON: Well, is this particular case, and anytime -- anytime and every time I've ever dealt with someone regarding their Miranda rights, I've always emphasized on a few things. And one of the things that I always emphasize with someone to make sure that it's clear that they understand their rights is just above where you read "Waiver of rights", you'll see, "If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time. You also have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to a lawyer". I always emphasize that to someone just to make sure they understand it and say, look, you know, if you talk to me, you can still stop at anytime, just to kind of -- to do my job and make sure they understand their rights. And then, at the bottom -- in his particular case, he read the form top to bottom, but at some point I got it back and I continued and said, okay, let's go over this with me now, and advised him of his rights and the waiver of rights that I'm referring to now and that he was not threatened or pressured or coerced in any way and that he did not want a lawyer at this time, he was willing to make a statement and he understood that.

ERIC JOHNSON: I think he did, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did.

ERIC JOHNSON: I wouldn't say alcohol, but in my experience in law enforcement, I would say that he was, probably, coming off something.

ERIC JOHNSON: No. Mr. Jones made it perfectly clear that he was educated and he could read and understand and comprehend.

ERIC JOHNSON: No. We did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: We did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: As I recall, mostly me, but a lot of the interaction during that period of time regarding this interview with Mr. Jones, a lot of the interaction was between his father and he, and myself and Sheriff Crumpton would interject questions at some points in the conversation. And Undersheriff Patterson was making some notations of things that could possibly prove to be useful in the investigation. But myself and Sheriff Crumpton would interject questions, but he and his father were in dialogue a good bit of the time.

ERIC JOHNSON: Like I said, as best I recall, he and his father began to talk and I would interject, you know, Tim, we know that you have five children. That's no question. We've been on the phone with authorities in South Carolina and they're not with their mother. And your father, their grandfather, wants to know where they are at. Where are these kids. And I've never -- maybe, one other time in my career there was someone acting this erratic, but he would be from one extreme to the other. Extremely loud and teary and crying and talking about Cindy put this in my head. And we later learned through listening that Cindy was his mother who'd had some mental issues in the past, based on our understanding. The only way you can stop me is put a bullet in my head. Just crazy, you know, sounding talk, like that's not the law here. He'd comment and he'd talk just a minute, and then he would yell over here, and just one extreme to the other. Very high and low, up and down emotions.

ERIC JOHNSON: Let me refer.

ERIC JOHNSON: Of my report, Counselor?

ERIC JOHNSON: Page number, again, sir?

ERIC JOHNSON: Three.

ERIC JOHNSON: Referring to my notes, Jones began to speak with his father. Would you mind if I read some of this to --

ERIC JOHNSON: -- convey it to the jury?

ERIC JOHNSON: Thank you, Your Honor.

ERIC JOHNSON: Thank you. A Regarding to the report that I wrote in reference to this interview. "Jones, Jr. began to speak with his father. Jones, Jr. was acting in such a manner that I've never seen. He was sweating profusely in a cold room with beads of sweat dripping from his hair. He would scream out that it was Cindy who put these voices in his head and that Cindy passed this on to him." We discovered Cindy was Jones, Jr's. mother who had apparently spent time in a mental institution. Jones continued, "She put this poison on my head. Jones, Sr. expressed to his son that he loved him and that he would do whatever he had to in order to get Jones, Jr. the mental help he needed. Jones, Jr. stated the only way you can help me is to put a bullet in my head. That is the only way you can stop me. The only way you can fix me to is kill me." Jones, Jr. continued, "After Amber left me --", and we learned later that was the ex-wife, "-- it just came out of me. I couldn't control it. Voices are in my head. Jones, Sr. asked Jones, Jr. where the kids were. Jones, Jr. said the kids were in South Carolina." Jones said, "I left the kids for a reason. I will never go back to them. Someone stick a needle in my arm and get me out of it. My mom gave it to me". Continue, Counselor?

ERIC JOHNSON: "Jones, Sr. asked why he didn't come see him this weekend along with the kids, as he had planned to do. Jones, Jr. stated, I didn't come to see you because of all this stuff in my head. Once, again, Jones, Sr. asked where the kids are. Jones, Jr. said, when I tell you, I'm going to hang myself. Then Jones, Jr. indicated an address of South Carolina and said that was where the kids are. He also indicated that if we loaded him in a car, he would take us to them. Jones, Jr. continued by saying that he put the kids out of the vehicle on the road between his residence and the Walmart nearby in South Carolina. Jones, Jr. said that one of his sons, Nahtahn, threatened to kill him by cutting him up and feeding him to the dogs. Jones, Jr. said that this ain't -- this is not normal for a child to tell his parents that sort of thing. Jones, Jr. continued to indicate that he had pushed the children out of the vehicle between his residence and the Walmart in South Carolina". Continue, Counselor?

ERIC JOHNSON: "He even indicated he had kicked the kids out of the vehicle in that vicinity. Jones, Jr. stated it was a two minute drive from his house on South Lake Drive in Lexington, South Carolina, and that police should look on the path. He also said he put all of them out at one time beside the road near Walmart. When I asked him about the muriatic acid discovered in his vehicle, Jones, Jr. explained that was a technique used in his work in building and making computer boards. Jones said he wasn't worried about the kids because they want to kill him. Jones, Jr. indicated he had encountered a police officer within the past few days. Jones, Jr. continued by explaining he had been traveling smaller roads and avoiding the major highways and interstates. Jones, Jr. said he had pulled over one evening, possibly in Alabama, to look at a roadmap. As he began to pull off, his front tire on the passenger side fell into a deep hole or ditch, which caused him to be stuck. Someone who lived at a residence up the hill from where he had stopped came to his aid and stated they would call him a tow truck to pull him out. As he waited on the tow truck, a white male police officer wearing a dark blue uniform and driving a white marked SUV type police vehicle stopped to see if he needed any assistance. According to Jones, Jr., the officer ran his driver's license, and then left. Jones, Jr. said he paid the tow truck operator $110 and departed the area. When asked where he would stop and sleep, Jones, Jr. said hotels were too expensive and he would just stop at roadside parks and sleep in the vehicle".

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: We did.

ERIC JOHNSON: As I recall, the muriatic acid and he stated it was used for the computer boards, and whether that's true or not, I don't know. That was above my pay grade on that. And the other items, he just kind of nonchalantly discarded as unimportant or nothing like that.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I don't recall if we brought that out during that interview or not. That might have been some hold back information that we didn't want him to know we had or knew about until we maybe had ascertained some more information. I don't know if we brought that out, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: "Timothy Jones Sr. asked his son, did you hurt the kids. Jones, Jr. blurted out yes, and then he said no. Mr. Ryder showed Jones, Jr. copies of the handwritten notes -- ". We did show him. We did, based on this -- on our report. I showed him the day one plans and so forth of the, "Head to campgrounds", that we covered earlier. We did go over that. "And Jones, Jr. screamed, oh, God, what did I do. I don't know what I might have done. Jones, Jr. continued by saying the kids were fine and he never wanted to see him again. At one point during the interview, Jones, Jr. held his arms up to his father's throat as to indicate a choking manner, but he did not attempt to put any pressure or harm his father". He'd actually gotten up from the table from the previous sketch and walked around the small room. And his father was seated on the couch right here, and he walked over to his father and leaned over and did like a choking manner to his father.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct. Shortly after that, the interview ended.

ERIC JOHNSON: It would have been around 7:25 p.m. based on my notes.

ERIC JOHNSON: Well, that would have been the time the waiver and everything was completed and there's about a -- if you look at the time at the top, Counselor, it should be 18:06, 6:06 p.m. But the time he had read the Miranda to me, he had Mirandized me and we looked back over it, it was 6:08 p.m. So approximately two minutes on the Miranda form, but the length of time on the interview would have been from around 6:00 p.m. to 7:25, if that answers -- I think I see where Counselor is going.

ERIC JOHNSON: -- about an hour and 20 minutes on the interview. The first interaction with Mr. Jones.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did. Profuse sweating. Kind of foaming at the mouth actually. I noticed that. Yelling or screaming out, bursts of anger and fear of the children based on some of the statements he'd made in the interview with him.

ERIC JOHNSON: He was interviewed again on the 8th, Counselor. Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes. As I recall, based on my notes, officials from Lexington County Sheriff's Department, SLED and an FBI agent came over once -- after the interview the previous night. And actually we're on the phone with South Carolina saying this is what we've got, this is what he said, this is how he's acting. What do you guys have over there. So we're working together. So they said, we're making plans to head that way. So they came over the next day. There was plenty of them in that interview. So I did not go into the interview room. I was in the adjacent room.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did.

ERIC JOHNSON: Bear with me just a moment, Counselor. Okay. After this interview had concluded, Timothy Jones, Jr. had admitted to harming the children. So we began to work a concerted effort, okay, where are the children. He agreed to take us back to where the children were. So I was in and out of that room, along with other investigators, and we were trying to narrow down the stretch of highway where he believed it was somewhere in Alabama. So I had maps, I had computer screens pulled up with maps, we're looking at this, we're looking at that. And while I was in the room, Timothy was allowed to speak with his father and he requested to speak to his father who was present at the Sheriff's Department. But his father was not in this interview with -- the subsequent interview. The second one we're talking about now. So we allowed him to speak to his father. He stated, "He was sorry for what he'd done to the children and there was no way his father could love him now. Jones, Jr. indicated he strangled the children in his residence in South Carolina on or about the 28th of August of 2014. Jones, Sr. maintained his composure and was able to communicate with his son. The two discussed a memorial service for the children and Jones, Jr's. financial situation, referring to the need to hire an attorney for representation".

ERIC JOHNSON: On the second interview, which was conducted by the South Carolina authorities and SLED and Sheriff Crumpton, I believe, was present in that interview, he was as different as night and day. His demeanor was down lower. He was calmer. He was more consistent in his answers. He was more consistent in his speech. He wasn't the same Timothy that I initially met the day before.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: This is another Miranda form that is dated the 9th of September, 2014 and the time is indicated here. This appears to be the original form and I advised him of his constitutional rights, the same as the form we previously went over. And it was signed, read by me and witnessed by Special Agent Dave Mackey with the FBI.

ERIC JOHNSON: It is, identical. The same form. Just different date, time and witness.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I did.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: If I may expound just a moment. Regarding this date, this was the date that we were preparing to go to Alabama and search for the children and we advised him of his rights simply because of anything that's said will be used in court. The exact same form. This time, it was at 11:13 a.m, in the morning, witnessed and signed at 11:14. The same form, different date.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: We did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: We did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: No. He did not.

ERIC JOHNSON: Two different people. Again, he was -- the next two days of interaction was as different from the first as night and day. He was much more calmer, speaking calmly, answering questions, assisting.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes. Multiple agencies were involved in this endeavor.

ERIC JOHNSON: One of my other agents out of my office, Trent Weeks and I were the two representatives from MBI.

ERIC JOHNSON: Mr. Jones was transported -- because he was in the custody of the Smith County Mississippi Sheriff, he was transported in a deputy's car, along with the Lexington County Investigator Adam Creech and another investigator from the Smith County Sheriff's Department, as I recall. There was, basically, a caravan leaving the Smith County, Mississippi, area traveling back to Alabama. During this time of looking at maps and narrowing down and looking at receipts and trying to get a timeline of where he had been, I had contacted the Alabama Bureau of Investigation and spoke with agents there along with some sheriffs in some of the lower lying counties along the route that we believed, at that time, that he'd probably taken. So there was multiple agency assistance.

ERIC JOHNSON: About 12:30 on the date in question, the 9th. We left at 12:27, actually, based on my notes. We left the Smith County Sheriff's Department in route to the Alabama area, Alabama Highway 10.

ERIC JOHNSON: It was -- I would say it was about three hours. It was about three hours. It was 160 or, 160 or 70 miles from Smith County. It was deeper into Alabama than we anticipated at first.

ERIC JOHNSON: No, we did not. As I stated previously, we had an idea based on the timeline that we had -- the rough timeline that we established and communicated with Jones, Jr., Timothy, and looking at maps and talking to authorities over there, you know, we realized how far it was.

ERIC JOHNSON: We only took one misguided turn and it wasn't really a turn.

ERIC JOHNSON: According to Timothy, he had given us information that he had discarded the children in black garbage bags at an old dirt road. Well, I'm not real familiar with South Carolina, but in Old Mississippi and Alabama and down through that area, we have a lot of rural areas and timberland and we have a lot of logging, and on these logging sites you have loading zones. They'll go up there and they'll clear a big area and that's where the skidders will drag the logs out to. And we were traveling on 10 and, like I said, we were in several vehicles. So we're communicating via cell phone and watching mirrors and I think Trent, my agent and I, were out front. We saw them stop, slow down and pull in one area just off the main highway up a hill, red dirt area, a little logging loading site. Well, in just a moment, Timothy -- I said Timothy. I may have said that wrong. Timothy said, this is not the place, pull back out, and we continued east on Alabama 10 for several more miles. And the next spot -- like I stated, the old loading zone, the log landing zone that they pull them to, that was the spot. The second spot we stopped at was it.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. Along Route 10 in Alabama, it's a wooded, it's a hunter's paradise. It's a wooded area, rural Alabama, a lot of timberland, and as we were traveling onto Highway 10, we turned left back north, I was looking at a map, and just went up just a -- just a few yards. Just maybe 50, 100 yards from where the log trucks would enter out onto the highway. You know, you always get, when you see trucks entering highway area. We pulled right up in there in the big loading zone and that's where it was at. It was up a slight hill, red dirt area, clear cut area. And then, they'll have different routes for the skidders that pull timber up to the loading zone where they delimbed them and things of that nature. And off one of the skidder runs was where the garbage bags were. The children.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Once we had located the children, it wasn't the -- the calvary came in at that point. The Alabama Bureau of Investigation, I can't say enough about how good they did, and the local sheriffs down in those counties. Those two counties that we had kind of narrowed things down to were just a tremendous help. But when we radioed or phone called and said, look, we're at this location, here's our GPS, the calvary came rolling in. Alabama secured the area. They had three choppers in the air and a bunch of Alabama Bureau of Investigation, State and narcotics agents and, basically, the area was quarantined off, tapped off, as I recall. And Mr. Jones, Timothy Jones, Jr. wasn't kept there but maybe a period of 10 minutes or less. And then Sheriff Crumpton, since he was in the custody of the Smith County Sheriff and Sheriff Crumpton was responsible for him, he told his deputies to go back to Mississippi with him. Take him and get him out of this area right here right now and all these people. No need to leave him there.

ERIC JOHNSON: They did and Agent Weeks and I, I think, we remained on-scene until South Carolina may have gotten there. We stayed there quite a few hours.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Good afternoon, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: We have, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: We did, sir. Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: We did, Counselor. Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. We have.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: You know, and respectfully, and, Counselor, I don't recall who called who or at what point. But at some point, I did communicate with Tim Jones, Sr., and it would have probably been that very day before we did the interview with Tim, Jr. Yes. So at some point we --

ERIC JOHNSON: Was that the original stop?

ERIC JOHNSON: No, sir. I did not. You're right, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: No. I didn't even know his name at that point.

ERIC JOHNSON: No, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I did.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes. I did.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct. I found some other handwritten notes.

ERIC JOHNSON: Absolutely.

ERIC JOHNSON: These are, Counselor. Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: It does. That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's -- based on my notes, that is correct. It says here at 13:15 hours, or at 1:15 in the afternoon, that I had spoken -- it says, "Spoke with Jones, Sr. at 1:15 hours there. It didn't say I called, but I did speak to him. I don't remember how that happened. It may have been me that called him.

ERIC JOHNSON: No, sir. It would have been a cell phone.

ERIC JOHNSON: A telephone. Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: But I did speak to him, based on my notations.

ERIC JOHNSON: I don't know if I asked him or he said I'm coming anyway, but they were on the way in and we welcomed them to coming.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct. It appeared that way.

ERIC JOHNSON: There was a lot of stuff in the car, but I didn't see any suitcases, like let's go on vacation. No.

ERIC JOHNSON: I didn't have -- I didn't have a list of what all was in the car, but there was a lot of stuff in the car. If this answers the Counselor's question, there was no suitcases as if you were going on a trip, there was miscellaneous clothing. There could have been -- there was so much stuff in there, there could have been a toothbrush in there is what I'm saying. I didn't itemize it.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct. There were no car seats in the car.

ERIC JOHNSON: I knew it had a very foul odor. Yes. I would associate it with decomposition.

ERIC JOHNSON: And his wife. Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do.

ERIC JOHNSON: I can. Mr. Jones, Sr. is in a gray shirt about three rows back, and then his wife, Julie, right there.

ERIC JOHNSON: No.

ERIC JOHNSON: No.

ERIC JOHNSON: He was a concerned grandfather and, yes, anything that would make Timothy, Jr. feel more comfortable that would help us maybe find a location where the children were. And, sincerely, it was a well-being concern. We didn't have a body to say we've got a death or multiple deaths. We had a father with no children. Where are the kids.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes. The first interview?

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: About. I think the stop, based on information that I ascertained, was around 8:00 o'clock. So, yeah. At least 22 hours, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: I don't know that I knew that at that time.

ERIC JOHNSON: It's possible, but I was working on other things and that wasn't -- that wasn't my lane, at that time.

ERIC JOHNSON: I can't answer that. He wasn't in my presence.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: No, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I would agree with the way Counselor presented that. Very loud, very yelling, very outspoken.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yeah. He would get -- yes. He would get emotional, he would cry, he would have outbursts. Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: Well, at that time, he would change gears, change subjects, things of that nature, and I don't really -- I didn't tape record it, so I don't know verbatim. But my notations and what I read to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury is my recollection based on my notes that I took of how he acted. But I couldn't tell you word for word what he said.

ERIC JOHNSON: Our focus was where are the children.

ERIC JOHNSON: Are they okay.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did say that.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes. Well, let me rephrase. We didn't think they were in South Carolina.

ERIC JOHNSON: Right.

ERIC JOHNSON: I can tell you where they weren't. They weren't at home, they weren't with their mother, they weren't somewhere between the residence and Walmart.

ERIC JOHNSON: Outside of that, I didn't know where they were.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: I knew that wasn't true. Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: Where he would stop and sleep.

ERIC JOHNSON: He did. That's what he said.

ERIC JOHNSON: He didn't say that, but I see what you're saying. You're saying that the bodies were, obviously, in the vehicle. Is that what you're saying, Counselor?

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, obviously, so. At some points, he was.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes. It appears so based on the timeline.

ERIC JOHNSON: That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: One other time and one other case, it was similar, but this was extreme behavior that Mr. Jones, Jr. was exhibiting.

ERIC JOHNSON: It was extreme behavior. Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: I have, Counselor.

ERIC JOHNSON: I've seen people injured. Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: I have.

ERIC JOHNSON: At points in my career, I'm sure I've run across all of that.

ERIC JOHNSON: No. I do not know what it was.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir. May I digress just a moment, Counselor?

ERIC JOHNSON: On the question you had previously asked, I didn't think it was alcohol, and it was more similar -- his behavior was more similar to some sort of substance abuse to me based on my experience and training and what I had seen, to be clear on what I thought.

ERIC JOHNSON: Okay.

ERIC JOHNSON: Well, I've seen people hallucinate and say things of that nature.

ERIC JOHNSON: It would be something along those lines.

ERIC JOHNSON: It sounded like it.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes, sir.

ERIC JOHNSON: Uh-huh. He --

ERIC JOHNSON: That's exactly what was said, sir, that I heard. That I heard. Yes.

ERIC JOHNSON: He talked about arrangements for the children and legal counsel.

ERIC JOHNSON: Yes. That's correct.

ERIC JOHNSON: I do now. I wasn't sure, but I do now.

ERIC JOHNSON: I knew someone on that table was, but I wasn't sure who.

ERIC JOHNSON: I don't know, Counselor.