1.Adam Creech — Cross/Redirect/Recross (Part 5)
327 linesMay 23, 2019.
THE COURT: We have got to swear a SLED officer this morning. We are going to mark the video of Amber's scene as a Court's exhibit. It is on a flash drive and is marked as a Court's exhibit number 87. (Whereupon, Court's Exhibit 87 was marked for identification only.)
THE COURT: Also, it occurred to me, everybody has got a different way of remembering things. Y'all are walking up here looking for an exhibit or looking for a picture, you know what the picture is. The jury doesn't care about the exhibit numbers. I have got Whitney kind of organizing it by subject matter, stuff in the bucket, picture of the scene, picture of whatever and where ever because they don't know exhibit numbers. We know the exhibit numbers. So if y'all need a subject matter those labels are kind of going to be for the jury's benefit too.
RICK HUBBARD: Good idea.
THE COURT: That was my idea, not Joy's but y'all keep cluttering up your stuff I am going to tighten you up further. Y'all ready to go?
RICK HUBBARD: Yes, sir. (Whereupon, the jury came into open court at approximately 9:04 a.m.)
THE COURT: Good morning.
JUROR: Good morning.
THE COURT: Everybody have a good evening?
JUROR: Yes.
THE COURT: Anybody have any issues with anybody trying to talk to them, speak to them in any way?
JUROR: No.
THE COURT: We'll keep moving forward. Agent Creech, I need you to come over here and take your oath from the Clerk.
AGENT Adam Creech, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Welcome to Lexington. You didn't have to go to bike week either, huh?
AGENT MEANS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Solicitor, your witness still.
RICK HUBBARD: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Detective, you're still under oath. CONTINUE CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HUBBARD:
RICK HUBBARD: Sergeant Creech, we've been talking about your interview with the Defendant, Mr. Jones, on September 8th, 2014. And I think when we broke, we talked about the number of lies he had told you. We've covered Wal-Mart. We've covered the note. But you also mentioned blood --
ADAM CREECH: Yes, I did.
RICK HUBBARD: -- found in the car? What was his initial story as to the blood?
ADAM CREECH: So he had told the officers on the night of the 7th that it was from an animal. And he repeated that to us on the 8th before then saying that it was from a cut.
RICK HUBBARD: And eventually, as the conversation went on, he finally came off of that as well?
ADAM CREECH: He did.
RICK HUBBARD: Okay. Now, before he came off of it and said let's cut to the chase and he was talking about fear of the kids and things the kids were saying, you offered up an out for him, one that you thought -- I think you had said you kind of pushed it to the limit. What was that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. So as I previously testified, I offered him a very blatant self-defense argument and I kind of oversold it a little bit. And he reacted accordingly, that he thought it was kind of ridiculous.
RICK HUBBARD: And you mentioned yesterday that his emotions were up and down, a lot of sobbing, a lot of -- when the photos were laid out, how he reacted. At some point, you mentioned a complete change and he said what?
ADAM CREECH: He said, guys, let's cut to the chase.
RICK HUBBARD: Now, watching that emotional change, was that just -- did he just fade into that or how was it?
ADAM CREECH: It was a pretty sharp turn in his demeanor. I mean, he went from being very visibly upset that it was snapped your finger or flipped a switch and he was suddenly in a completely different demeanor.
RICK HUBBARD: Did that tell you, as an investigator, he could control his emotions?
ADAM CREECH: It certainly appeared he was controlling them.
RICK HUBBARD: Now, you had mentioned at some point the interview was taped. You tried to tape the first part and it didn't work. I want to show you State's 145. Is that the interview that we went over with Dave Mackey?
ADAM CREECH: Correct. This would be the beginning part of that interview.
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor, I'm not sure if this was admitted, but I'll admit it now.
COURT REPORTER: I do not have it as an exhibit.
RICK HUBBARD: I'll offer it now.
THE COURT: And that's State's Exhibit number what, Joy?
COURT REPORTER: That's State's number 145.
THE COURT: Is there any objection?
ROBERT MADSEN: Subject to previous objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Subject to previous objection, it will be admitted. (WHEREUPON, State's Exhibit number 145 was admitted into evidence.)
RICK HUBBARD: Now, once he said -- Mr. Jones said let's cut to the chase, how was his tone?
ADAM CREECH: It was pretty -- I'd call it pretty even, pretty calm, steady.
RICK HUBBARD: And when the topic of Nahtahn came back up, do you recall him admitting he had pushed Nahtahn too far?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, those were his words, that he had pushed Nahtahn too far.
RICK HUBBARD: What word did he use to describe Nahtahn's attitude that night towards him?
ADAM CREECH: As I -- has come up in previous testimony, he specifically used the word defiant to describe Nahtahn.
RICK HUBBARD: And again, he's the little six-year-old?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, he would be the six-year-old.
RICK HUBBARD: Now, do you recall as you and Agent Mackey interviewed him the question being put to him, was this out of fear or was this because Nahtahn wouldn't come off of it? Do you remember that question?
ADAM CREECH: I do. So Special Agent Mackey directly asked if it was out of -- because of fear or because Nahtahn wouldn't come off of it. And Timothy responded, yes, it was because Nahtahn wouldn't come off of it.
RICK HUBBARD: And was he -- as you talked to him, did he appear visibly angered even as he's talking about Nahtahn?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. Most times that Nahtahn would come up, it was clearly a bit of a trigger for Timothy. It would, at least, irritated him if not make him appear to be visibly kind of angry.
RICK HUBBARD: Do you recall him saying something to the effect that if he had just come off of it, none of this would have happened?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, he absolutely attributed that if Nahtahn had been truthful about this issue with the electrical outlets that none of the other children would have been killed.
RICK HUBBARD: In fact, Nahtahn wouldn't have been killed?
ADAM CREECH: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: When he talks about Scooby Snax, what we now know is spice, AB Pinaca, did he say he smoked that right before he killed Nahtahn and these kids?
ADAM CREECH: No. He was very explicit to say he didn't smoke any beforehand, but he used it afterwards.
RICK HUBBARD: When he placed these kids -- I'm using the word placed, that's my word -- in his car, did he mention he used care in doing that?
ADAM CREECH: No. He said he was not very careful because they were already dead.
RICK HUBBARD: Did he say he used anything to wrap them or cover them with?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He said he used blankets and sheets from the house.
RICK HUBBARD: Isn't it true, it's not just from the house, but he used the kids' own blankets and sheets from their beds?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. It was the blankets and sheets from their beds. Hence, why the beds were bare once law enforcement searched the house.
RICK HUBBARD: And he covered them up so he didn't have to look at them?
ADAM CREECH: It would appear so.
RICK HUBBARD: And that if you looked in the vehicle, you would just see blankets?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. They were pretty thoroughly covered. I mean, being small children and large blankets and comforters, we had to uncover them pretty good later on to see that they were there.
RICK HUBBARD: And when he says he's driving all over the place, isn't it true, he says when he's doing this, the entire time he's trying to think what's his next step?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He mentioned that as he formulated different plans of what he was going to do that this was during his travels.
RICK HUBBARD: And isn't it true, he said he's, basically, he's in panic mode?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He described as if his big dilemma during this period was what was he going to do with the children and how was he going to get rid of, he used the word evidence.
RICK HUBBARD: He referred to his kids as evidence?
ADAM CREECH: He did.
RICK HUBBARD: Evidence is for court, is that right?
ADAM CREECH: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: When he went to the Dollar General and bought trash bags, and he finally admitted that he did that, do you recall him saying it wasn't just for the kids?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. So I believe that Special Agent Mackey posed the particular question if the trash bags were purchased for the children. And he said, yes, but I had other trash to throw away, too, was his response.
RICK HUBBARD: And when y'all questioned him about the smell of the children's bodies, what did he say about that?
ADAM CREECH: He said it smelled like shit.
RICK HUBBARD: And how -- did you ask him how do you handle that smell, how can you sit in a car and drive? What was his response?
ADAM CREECH: He had used a lot of air fresheners and Febreze, I believe, but he said that -- I mean, the odor was pretty pungent. You couldn't -- you couldn't cut that with a whole lot. But he said, you just get used to it after a while.
RICK HUBBARD: And this isn't just a bad smell, this is coming from his dead children?
ADAM CREECH: Correct. It was clearly a decomp -- decomposition odor.
RICK HUBBARD: And you just get used to after a while?
ADAM CREECH: That's what he said.
RICK HUBBARD: At some point, it came out that why did you ride around looking. Well, I didn't want to part from them. I wasn't ready to part with my kids. You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He did eventually tell me during our interactions, our discussions that the reason it took him a week was because he just wasn't ready to let them go.
RICK HUBBARD: But isn't it true, the night before he did something with these children's bodies, he actually got stopped by a law enforcement officer?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. Again, that would be the story of him getting stuck in the ditch the night before and almost getting arrested where he said he should have been caught then.
RICK HUBBARD: So it was a close call?
ADAM CREECH: He certainly made it sound like it was a very close call because he said the children were just right there in the vehicle.
RICK HUBBARD: And if he had got caught, he knew he would be in trouble?
ADAM CREECH: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: And it's then that he acts and gets rid of these children?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. The next morning, they're gone by lunchtime, I guess, for lack of better words.
RICK HUBBARD: When y'all finally get him to admit everything and then he's now trying to help you find the bodies, did he appear that he could focus and be engaged in that process?
ADAM CREECH: He did. I mean, he became very engaged. Because, I mean, it was, I think, 170, 180 miles from where we were at. So he would have to be pretty focused and engaged to help us do that level of back tracking, especially when he told us that he had tried to be very random and tried to leave them at a place that he wouldn't be able to help us later on. So the fact that he was still able to do that, we thought was pretty remarkable.
RICK HUBBARD: And he's an IT guy, so y'all made sure he had computer access?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. We had hoped that if he could just even give us a location on a map of the general vicinity that we would be able to find them without even having to take him back.
RICK HUBBARD: And he even asked something about a topographical map, something that would show heights and depths?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. It was a pretty difficult type of map to find. I don't think we ever found anything that was quite suitable.
RICK HUBBARD: So during this process, you could actually engage with him and talk technical talk about how to find these kids?
ADAM CREECH: Certainly. Most discussions with him, I would say, were fairly intelligent discussions with, you know, not necessarily advanced topics, but, certainly, fairly technical discussions at times.
RICK HUBBARD: At any time, does he have what might be described as a flat effect, just kind of he's just there?
ADAM CREECH: Yeah, I mean, sometimes -- I mean, you heard that on some of the recordings, he does go -- be very emotional at times, but other times, he does have a very flat out, matter of fact effect and demeanor.
RICK HUBBARD: But when he's matter of fact, that's when he was actually confessing, correct?
ADAM CREECH: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: So it wasn't like there's just nothing there, he actually talks and tells you details, is that correct?
ADAM CREECH: Oh, correct. He was very communicative.
RICK HUBBARD: It's not like all of a sudden, he goes into zombie mode?
ADAM CREECH: No. Appropriately engaged, no shift in focus, just he would go from being upset to very flat.
RICK HUBBARD: But he could turn it on and off, is that right?
ADAM CREECH: It certainly turned off and on when we interacted with him.
RICK HUBBARD: And when he finally was trying to help find the children, by that point, he had nothing to lose, did he?
ADAM CREECH: No. And I had explained that to him, that -- I mean, the case was effectively made against him at that point whether we found the children or not. But, you know, I felt like it was important for everybody -- once we knew that they weren't alive, it really shifted from a -- kind of -- I guess you could say it went from a rescue mission to a recovery mission. And to me, our most important objective at that point was to find those children so that they could be put to rest and that the family could get some marginal sense of closure.
RICK HUBBARD: Throughout this process dealing with him, your interaction with him, would you describe it as a little different than Dave Mackey's interaction with him?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. It certainly just naturally developed into more -- he saw Special Agent Mackey in a more antagonistic light, I think partially because of his role as an FBI agent and his more direct accusations. So, you know, I kind of began to subtly kind of take advantage of that. I tend to have a more emphatic approach during interviews anyways. I'm very rarely good at being the bad cop. So I certainly took advantage to be in the good cop role in this situation.
RICK HUBBARD: While he was still denying what happened, when he would be confronted by Agent Mackey, would he gravitate to you?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He would certainly gravitate more toward me in those uncomfortable moments. But I tended to -- I sat pretty close to him, kind of facing toward him. I think at one point, I even put a hand on his shoulder, kind of giving some physical reassurance because -- just kind of creating that bond as we spoke.
RICK HUBBARD: And that's part of your training?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. It's not as much interview training. I've got a lot of background, about eight years in crisis negotiations. So I tend to apply a lot of those tactics when I'm interviewing somebody, especially when they're clearly in what I would call a state of crisis.
RICK HUBBARD: Did it seem important to Tim Jones that you believe him?
ADAM CREECH: It did. He -- he appeared to be very -- our opinion, or my opinion, specifically, appeared to be very important to him.
RICK HUBBARD: Did it seem important to him that you tell him he's doing the right thing?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. And that became a recurring theme. And I would reinforce it because, at that point, like I said, he had confessed. He could have stopped at any point and said you know what, I'm not taking you guys to these kids. I'm done. But at that point, like I said, my main objective wasn't him confessing anymore because he had already done that, it was just really important that we find those children. Whatever I had to do to keep that foregoing, I was going to do that.
RICK HUBBARD: Because your job wasn't done yet?
ADAM CREECH: No, absolutely not.
RICK HUBBARD: The next day, September 9th, the day y'all go to Alabama to find these children, do you remember, as Agent Mackey said, y'all bring him in in front of all the officers and you say all right, Mr. Jones, go through this again. You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: I do.
RICK HUBBARD: When he went through that again, the whole incident about what happened August the 28th, that night when all these children died, or deceased, as he says, does he ever mention voices?
ADAM CREECH: He doesn't. He gives a very basic summary of what took place, starting with Nahtahn and the PT incident, and him strangling the other four children, but he doesn't mention voices during this.
RICK HUBBARD: Do you recall him mentioning for the first time his prescription glasses were broken?
ADAM CREECH: He does. And I don't remember if that was in response to a question or if it just kind of came up as an afterthought, but that was the first time he had mentioned -- that he said Nahtahn had broken a pair of glasses that night that he said cost several hundred dollars. And as he mentioned that, he got noticeably angry about it. It was still something that he was a little bitter about, it appeared.
RICK HUBBARD: So this is on the day he's doing the right thing to take you to the bodies of his children and he's still angry at Nahtahn?
ADAM CREECH: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: Now, obviously, he -- you rode with him. Are you in the back of the vehicle with Mr. Jones on that long ride to Alabama?
ADAM CREECH: I was. He was on the rear driver's side and I was on the rear passenger side.
RICK HUBBARD: And you had the recorder going and he knew that?
ADAM CREECH: On the way back, we did, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: Okay. So on the way back. So you get down there -- let me ask you this. You get to that site and you mentioned something about the bags, one or more of them had tears in them and you were concerned about animal activity. So you asked him -- what did you ask him?
ADAM CREECH: If you don't mind, I want to review the transcript so I'm not speaking out of turn.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, let me ask you, did you ask him if he did something to the bodies that caused those tears?
ADAM CREECH: I did. Because even though he told us initially that he hadn't done anything, he later changed that to say that he had tried to saw Nahtahn's leg. So we didn't have absolutely certainty that we weren't going to get there and find the bags and find the bodies and there be findings contrary to what he had already said we would find.
RICK HUBBARD: And he had already mentioned, I guess, the day before about, I don't know any other way to put it, but that portion of scalp that turned out to be Eli's?
ADAM CREECH: Correct. The bit of scalp tissue that Stacy Jones had originally told me about. I think a picture of it was introduced. We -- that was one of the things we had asked about. He just attributed it to the fact that he hadn't been very careful with the bodies.
RICK HUBBARD: And why wasn't he careful with the bodies?
ADAM CREECH: Because they were already dead.
RICK HUBBARD: And so, when y'all got to the site, which is seen in State's 160, these bags, when you saw some tear damage to the bags and you asked him about that, did he say anything about, you know, maybe it was me? It could have been just because I was careless with the bags, something to that effect? You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: I believe he said I don't know and indicated that his actions could have been responsible.
RICK HUBBARD: As to that discussion on the way back with that tape recorder going, this is on the 9th, you're driving back, taking him back to Mississippi?
ADAM CREECH: That's correct.
RICK HUBBARD: Sheriff Crumpton had wanted to get him on back to Mississippi?
ADAM CREECH: Yeah, he wanted to get it done pretty quick.
RICK HUBBARD: Do you recall Mr. Jones saying, my mind was just put them out and run?
ADAM CREECH: It was. That's what he said.
RICK HUBBARD: Do you recall him saying, I was just trying to buy time?
ADAM CREECH: He did.
RICK HUBBARD: And again, as to the ripped bags, you remember him saying, that was probably me?
ADAM CREECH: He did.
RICK HUBBARD: And then y'all went into that explanation. Do you remember him saying, I was merciless when I put them in there and threw them around. So, I mean, this was after the fact. Remember him saying that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, I very distinctly recall him using the word merciless. I thought that was a pretty strong choice of words.
RICK HUBBARD: And after the fact means what?
ADAM CREECH: They were already dead.
RICK HUBBARD: Remember him going on and saying, I put them into the vehicle mercilessly and threw stuff in there to try to shelter the smell? You remember him saying that?
ADAM CREECH: I do remember him saying that.
RICK HUBBARD: And again, as the conversation went on, he said, I was running on time borrowed, borrowed time?
ADAM CREECH: Borrowed time, because he believed that he was going to get caught at some point.
RICK HUBBARD: At some point, the conversation shifted about him -- about whether he would do anything to himself. And do you remember him saying, I'm not on suicide watch either. I promise you I'm not going that route?
ADAM CREECH: Yes.
RICK HUBBARD: So a man who's killed his children says he's not going to kill himself?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He explained that for religious reasons, he believed suicide was a cardinal sin and he'd go straight to hell.
RICK HUBBARD: But he didn't mention anything about killing your kids being a cardinal sin?
ADAM CREECH: No, he didn't.
RICK HUBBARD: His focus was on him, correct?
ADAM CREECH: It was certainly a Timothy-focused dilemma.
RICK HUBBARD: And then again for the third time, he mentions how merciless he was with the children. When I threw them in, I wasn't exactly nice about it. I just wanted to get out of there.
ADAM CREECH: That's what he said.
RICK HUBBARD: You remember him minimizing what he did to his children when he said, I tried to make it as little suffering as possible? You remember him saying that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. And I believe that was in response to us asking how long it took. Because as Dr. Ross previously testified, suffocation is not quick.
RICK HUBBARD: But he made it sound like it was gentle, is that right?
ADAM CREECH: He made it sound like it was as much so as he could make it.
RICK HUBBARD: And you remember him when he's talking, he says, all I know is that I started acting the wrong way. Remember that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, I do.
RICK HUBBARD: And all this talk about driving all around, you remember him saying again, when you asked him to kind of explain that, he said, I'm just going to buy time. Then he talks about he was trying to make plans, he's planning?
ADAM CREECH: Yes.
RICK HUBBARD: So he had a purpose for his driving?
ADAM CREECH: It appeared that the driving was -- you know, I guess anything than being at home and that's when he formulated all of his plans and bought supplies on various dates, especially there toward the end.
RICK HUBBARD: At some point, the focus shifts back to Nahtahn. He keeps coming back to Nahtahn, doesn't he?
ADAM CREECH: He does. In his conversation, Nahtahn came back up and he once more centered all the blame for this on Nahtahn.
RICK HUBBARD: And he said something to the effect -- if I'm reading this right, I think was trying to get rid of their bodies by mutilating them. He said that on the drive back, right?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, which would be reflected in the one note where he talked about getting rid of the remains.
RICK HUBBARD: And you asked him, how many bodies did you actually attempt to mutilate? And he shifts back to Nahtahn and you remember him saying, I just tried with Nahtahn. I tried to saw his leg and that's about it. You remember him saying that?
ADAM CREECH: I do.
RICK HUBBARD: And you asked why him and he says, he was just the one I went to because he was the focal point. That six-year-old was the focal point. You remember him saying that?
ADAM CREECH: I do. He was the focal point and Timothy, basically, attributed to him that he was the one that started all this and that was responsible.
RICK HUBBARD: And he says it several times, I mean, he was the whole focal point for this whole thing. You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes.
RICK HUBBARD: And then he goes on again, I mean, there was other parts, too, but he's the focal point. I mean, it's centered around him. Those are his words coming back after seeing these bags with his dead children's bodies in them, right?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, that's correct.
RICK HUBBARD: Then he got into the whole -- the DSS stuff that we've heard about with Nahtahn. You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. We talked about that a little bit.
RICK HUBBARD: And said Nahtahn had said something to, I guess the case worker with DSS. And you remember him saying, basically, Nahtahn and Merah, "wanted to see their mom and they wanted to go live there." You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, I do.
RICK HUBBARD: And, apparently, the case agent told them no. You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: I do.
RICK HUBBARD: He seemed upset about that, didn't he?
ADAM CREECH: It seemed to bother him quite a bit.
RICK HUBBARD: That his kids would choose Amber instead of him, is that correct?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. And you could say probably next to Nahtahn, Amber was a bit of a button for Timothy.
RICK HUBBARD: And as you drove and you were talking about Nahtahn, you said, are we going to find that you strangled him? You remember his words were, I don't think so. Not absolutely not, but I don't think so. Weren't those his words?
ADAM CREECH: Those were his words, which is a pretty unusual response to something that he's fairly adamantly denied up until that point.
RICK HUBBARD: And again, when he talked about -- in this conversation, he talked about his plans to get rid of the children, his words. You remember him mentioning just cut them up and feed them to a hog? That was one of the plans?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, that was one of the thoughts that went through his head.
RICK HUBBARD: And just throw them into concrete, that was another plan?
ADAM CREECH: Concrete compressor, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: Do you remember right towards the end, he made this statement, can you contact the mug shots, the people that make and handle mug shots for South Carolina and make sure they don't put me in that? You remember him saying that?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, he didn't want his picture in the mug shots. I guess he didn't want the publicity over all of this.
RICK HUBBARD: Tim Jones doesn't want to look bad, does he?
ADAM CREECH: Certainly didn't want to be on the news over this.
RICK HUBBARD: And he's concerned how society or the public might view him?
ADAM CREECH: He was very worried about he would be perceived over all of this.
RICK HUBBARD: And again, you keep telling him, Tim, you've done the right thing. You remember that?
ADAM CREECH: I have because -- we had found the children at that point, but I maintain to this day that it was -- not to excuse anything he did by any means, but it was the right thing for him to take us to those children. I think at that moment, it was the very least he could have done.
RICK HUBBARD: And it was important for him to keep hearing that from you, right?
ADAM CREECH: It appeared so. I felt it was important to keep saying it in equal measure.
RICK HUBBARD: But the last time, this is several days later, after the bodies were recovered of these little children, their bodies were recovered, you mentioned again, Tim, you did the right thing. You remember his response? What do you mean I did the right thing? I killed my fucking kids. Those were his words?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, it was a pretty harsh response to that.
RICK HUBBARD: And this whole time, he's talking about I had no plans and now I'm just trying to do the right thing. In his car, in his panic, the one thing he remembered to take was his passport, State's Exhibit 73. In his panic, loading that car up, he took this, didn't he?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. I remember seeing a passport in the car.
RICK HUBBARD: So for all that stuff in his car, this was his ticket to get away, is that right?
ADAM CREECH: It certainly has that appearance.
RICK HUBBARD: Detective Creech, thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Madsen.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MADSEN:
ROBERT MADSEN: Detective Creech, he didn't have to speak with you, did he?
ADAM CREECH: He absolutely didn't.
ROBERT MADSEN: He could have told you to go pound sand and you couldn't have gone back to him?
ADAM CREECH: Yeah, he could have stiff armed us from the start if he had wanted to and we would have had a much more difficult road ahead of us, I'll concede that.
ROBERT MADSEN: And when he talked to you about Nahtahn and -- or excuse me, was it Nahtahn and Merah conspiring through DSS to leave?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, he did talk about Nahtahn and Merah.
ROBERT MADSEN: And the Solicitor asked you about all these plans that the voices had told him about, but he told you, I couldn't go through with them?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He said he came up with all these plans, but couldn't go with any -- through with any of them. I think the only one he attempted was the dismemberment when he tried to saw Nahtahn's leg.
ROBERT MADSEN: And he told you once he started that, I couldn't go through with that either?
ADAM CREECH: He said one cut and he threw the saw into the treeline, which we never found.
ROBERT MADSEN: And the Solicitor asked you about suicide, I guess your words being a cardinal sin?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. He was very explicit that it would be against his religious beliefs.
ROBERT MADSEN: Because there's thought that if you do that, you don't have the ability to repent because you're dead?
ADAM CREECH: Correct. He felt like he could be forgiven for everything else short of suicide.
ROBERT MADSEN: And he told you, I think it was on tape, that how Agent Mackey intimidated him?
ADAM CREECH: He did. He was very intimidated by Special Agent Mackey, which I don't -- I think he's a nice guy. But I guess I can see how in Timothy's position, he was seeing the FBI agent in the mix as intimidating.
ROBERT MADSEN: And the Solicitor also asked you about the conversation on the 9th, I believe, with Tim, correct? That was kind of after the next morning, after the 8th?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. Yes, the one on the 9th.
ROBERT MADSEN: And you didn't record that?
ADAM CREECH: I didn't. It was kind of amidst of pretty rapid strategy session that was mostly law enforcement essentially.
ROBERT MADSEN: And I guess your report is what, about 40 pages?
ADAM CREECH: I think I've done north of 70, 75 pages ultimately in this case.
ROBERT MADSEN: And that conversation on the 9th is a paragraph?
ADAM CREECH: It is. It is. It was pretty brief.
ROBERT MADSEN: And your words are the events as Timothy once more related them were entirely consistent with what he told us the night before?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. I was referring to the basic events and I probably could have been a little clearer to establish that.
ROBERT MADSEN: And had Agent Lawrence there who could have polygraphed him on anything that y'all wanted to?
ADAM CREECH: He could have, but, again, polygraphs are a nice tool. But, like I said, I've only seen them used once in my ten years in an active criminal investigation.
ROBERT MADSEN: But the equipment made the trip with you?
ADAM CREECH: It did.
ROBERT MADSEN: And I believe you had even said, and he had told you about aimlessly traveling around, correct?
ADAM CREECH: He did.
ROBERT MADSEN: And you talked about when you gave him, I guess, the maps or the computers, when he had something technical to do, he could really focus on that, couldn't he?
ADAM CREECH: Oh, certainly. He certainly whizzed through the computer once it was given to him.
ROBERT MADSEN: But you said even when he was doing that, I believe your words were that he still had appropriate emotional responses at times?
ADAM CREECH: Yeah, because at times, he would get choked and crying, similar to responses he's shown in the courtroom in these proceedings I think as anybody would or should under the circumstances.
ROBERT MADSEN: And I think the Solicitor also asked you about this point in time where he just stops and says, let's cut to the chase, and his demeanor just on a dime changed, correct?
ADAM CREECH: Yes. It was very sudden. We were not even expecting it. We thought we would eventually get there, but he kind of pulled the rug out from under us when he jumps right into that.
ROBERT MADSEN: But he still ended up crying, showing emotion, all those things afterwards, correct?
ADAM CREECH: Yes, he did.
ROBERT MADSEN: And he had told you also that when he had placed in the bodies in Alabama, he stayed there for a while, didn't he?
ADAM CREECH: He did. He said he spent some time at the site before he left.
ROBERT MADSEN: I think it was about four hours?
ADAM CREECH: I believe. He made it sound like it was several hours possibly.
ROBERT MADSEN: And he prayed before he left?
ADAM CREECH: That's what he said he did.
ROBERT MADSEN: May we approach?
THE COURT: Sure. (WHEREUPON, a bench conference was held as stated below.)
ROBERT MADSEN: We think that he has made those autopsy photographs relevant. He specifically asked about the bodies but, the ripped bags.
RICK HUBBARD: I didn't mention autopsies, right.
THE COURT: My ruling hadn't changed yet as far as that goes. Those are five or six days after he dropped them. You can make an argument but my ruling will be the same because he showed the bags at the time of the dropoff.
ROBERT MADSEN: But he also asked about the bodies.
THE COURT: We can make a record but those aren't relevant, I mean they are relevant to the case. I don't believe he has opened the door to have those shown, that is the condition when Tim left them. That is my reason for not letting them in. 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, the same pictures they tried to introduce with Dr. Ross and my ruling is the same. And my understanding of the facts is not the same condition between Tim put the bodies on the side of the road in Alabama, there are several days past and more decomposition occurred. I thought that there was an opportunity perhaps of showing other pictures more relevant in time to when Tim dropped them. That is that y'all were arguing then, not what they looked like several days after that. I don't think the State has opened the door by showing the pictures of the trash bags in one group. I don't think the door has been opened.
ROBERT MADSEN: Do I need to--
THE COURT: You offered 109 through 113, the five pictures in the autopsy room. I understand y'all's argument but I don't think they are relevant. I think they are prejudicial. Those are not relevant to describing Tim's behavior. CONTINUE REDIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Madsen:
ROBERT MADSEN: Sergeant Creech, the Solicitor asked you about your job as an investigator. And you collect the facts, correct?
ADAM CREECH: Correct.
ROBERT MADSEN: Whether they're good or bad?
ADAM CREECH: That's correct.
ROBERT MADSEN: And you and Tim had a conversation where he asked you to contact his mother to help him figure out what's going on with him, correct?
ADAM CREECH: We did, and that was something I never had the time or opportunity to follow up on.
ROBERT MADSEN: You told him you would do that, but you didn't?
ADAM CREECH: I didn't.
ROBERT MADSEN: That's all the questions that I have.
RICK HUBBARD: Quick follow-up, just real quick, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Okay.
RICK HUBBARD: This is new.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HUBBARD:
RICK HUBBARD: Mr. Madsen asked you about the voices he heard about mutilating the kids. It's true he was able to ignore those voices and chose not to mutilate them, correct?
ADAM CREECH: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: Other than cutting on Nahtahn initially?
ADAM CREECH: That would be correct.
RICK HUBBARD: One other question. Mr. Madsen brought up the length of time Mr. Jones said he spent there with their bodies. But he still left them and left them for the wild, correct?
ADAM CREECH: That would be correct.
RICK HUBBARD: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down. All right. The defense needs a five-minute break, so we will take fifteen. (Whereupon, the jury was excused from the courtroom for a break.)
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: One quick thing. I understand they may be putting up one of their experts. If it is Dr. Agharkar, the report we have does not appear to be a final one. There's also an appendix. I just need to know what other information was initially supplied to it. And for this report and all other reports, do we have the final report because I don't think we do.
THE COURT: Okay.
RICK HUBBARD: And Your Honor, if he's got -- if they have any notes about what the Defendant said during these proceedings, we would like those as well.
THE COURT: We will take a break.
(WHEREUPON, a short break was taken.)
THE COURT: (WHEREUPON, Defendant's Exhibit numbers 131 and 132 were marked for identification.)
THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury?
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. (Whereupon, the jury came into open court at approximately 10:00 a.m.)
THE COURT: Call your witness.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir. The defense calls Dr. Bhushan Agharkar.