4.Micah Sutton — Direct/Cross
111 linesMICAH SUTTON, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Once you're seated, state your full name, spelling your last.
MICAH SUTTON: My name is Micah Sutton, S-U-T-T-O-N, last name, Micah, M-I-C-A-H, first name.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Sutton, will you just tell the jury where you live and what you do these days?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes, sir. I live in a place called Sylvania, Ohio, just outside of the Toledo area -- it's in the Toledo metro area. I pastor a church there, McCord Road Christian Church.
CASEY SECOR: And if you would, give the jury a little -- I'm sorry. Tell the jury a little bit about your background, the family that you come from and where your family was when you were growing up.
MICAH SUTTON: Sure. My family has all been in ministry most of my life. My uncles are pastors, my dad was a pastor for many years, he's now again a pastor. Missionaries in Indonesia, Philippines as well as planting churches around the country. My wife and I met in New Bedford, Massachusetts, where we -- well, where we after six months of marriage went on long-term missions to Botswana, Africa and were there for a while. Then came back to the States and have planted churches around -- served in several churches and then we planted a few churches or started from scratch a few churches around the country, one in Lombard, Illinois and then one in Kona, Hawaii and Hawaii was better.
CASEY SECOR: And you grew up in the Pentecostal faith, is that correct?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes, sir, I did. We were -- I was a part of the United Pentecostal church, my parents were a part of the United Pentecostal church. It's something that in our time there in Lombard, we were building a church that was Pentecostal. And since then, I'm no longer of that denomination, but at the time, I absolutely was.
CASEY SECOR: And is there -- what was it that led you to transition from the Pentecostal faith to the faith that you hold now?
MICAH SUTTON: I'm nondenominational at this particular point. Two things were major components of that. One was, in the Pentecostal faith, there is a much more rigid understanding of scripture and interpretation of that scripture. And while I believe a lot of it is great, a lot of it is good and I honor my heritage, at the same time, I was seeing a broader understanding of the body of Christ and what Christ was doing and who Christ was using. And so in that, I couldn't with integrity remain in the thought process that I was in. I had to move away from that in order to be able to experience what I thought was all that God would have for us.
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor, may we approach real quick?
THE COURT: Sure. (Whereupon, a bench conference was held in the presence of the jury but out of the hearing of the jury.)
CASEY SECOR: Pastor Sutton, I wanted us to move to -- up to 2003.
MICAH SUTTON: Sure.
CASEY SECOR: Just tell the jury the church that you had at that point.
MICAH SUTTON: We had planted a church called Center Point and it was there that we met Tim. We planted it -- we moved to the City of -- Town of Lombard, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. And when we arrived, there was no one there, so it was a very, very small church as we began to build it.
CASEY SECOR: And how did you first come into contact with Tim?
MICAH SUTTON: Tim called the church and said that he had just been released from prison and was looking for a place to worship, a place to connect and so asked if anyone could come by from the church to pick him up. So I did, I went to pick him up. Went to an area of town I had never been to before, very rough area of town and met Tim for the first time. Brought him to church and he began to attend on a regular basis.
CASEY SECOR: And when you say a regular basis, how many times did he attend church per week?
MICAH SUTTON: We were having services Sunday morning, Sunday evening and on Wednesday evenings -- or Tuesday evenings with our midweek Bible study. So he would be there most every time.
CASEY SECOR: Did you ever meet the woman that Tim eventually married, Amber?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes. I performed their wedding.
CASEY SECOR: So she was a member of your church as well?
MICAH SUTTON: Amber was a little different. She was not really a member of the church. I didn't meet her until Tim introduced her to us after they had met, started dating a little bit and moved in together.
CASEY SECOR: How did you feel about their relationship and them getting married? I think we've already heard they got married quickly, but how did you feel about their relationship --
RICK HUBBARD: Objection, relevance.
THE COURT: Sustained. Move on.
CASEY SECOR: When Tim started attending your church, what was your opinion of his religious devotion?
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor, again, I'm going to object. If there's some interaction, something the Defendant said, something like that, I'm fine.
THE COURT: Ask the question to its relevance to Tim's background.
CASEY SECOR: Was his dedication to Christianity and your faith, in your opinion, was it authentic?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes.
CASEY SECOR: Was it normal or did it exceed normalcy in terms of his world?
MICAH SUTTON: Very intense on every level. I would say exceeded most people's faith that I've known in its level of extremity. Things being interpreted extremely literally, the inability, at times, to differentiate between what -- how to -- struggling on how to apply what he was hearing and what he was being taught, what he was reading in the practical world.
CASEY SECOR: And do you mean that in terms of trying to apply his faith to the real world?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes. There's a lot of complete -- what I sensed was complete sincerity and, at the same time, a sense of struggle in how do you -- how do you take what you're reading here and apply into the world in which we live. And to that point, often caused trouble, even in the context of the church because he would be very -- could be insulting to people in things of that nature, get people upset at him. I used to laugh with my wife and say we have a church of 25 people and there's only one person who can make every one of them upset by the end of the service because of his just dedication to trying to literally apply the Word on every level.
CASEY SECOR: And he would voice those -- I guess, were they perceived as criticisms to people? Is that how you saw it?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes. If you know Tim, he has a prodigious memory. And his ability to remember things would often be in conflict simply because other people couldn't remember. So what would end up happening is he would make a statement, somebody would try to come back with an opinion or a thought and his response was simply to quote the Word of God, quote scripture to them, which he has an incredible ability to remember. But remembering isn't always the same thing as applying and so -- and interpreting properly. And so, there were times when it just caused consistent difficulty throughout his time there at Center Point.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Did he ask a lot of questions to you about Christianity?
MICAH SUTTON: Constant, constant questions. Always wanting to know, always wanting more information. One of his questions came at 2:00 o'clock, 2:30 in the morning. He called me and wanted to know -- we lived in one room, one Sunday School room. We had two babies, one literally newborn, one about two years old and two cats and a dog living in this one room in order to plant this church. And the phone rang at 2:00 o'clock in the morning and I jumped up, tried to put on my best pastor voice and, you know, act like I wasn't sleeping when he called. And he said, I was just thinking, I was reading the Bible and I wanted to know what Jeremiah was talking about. What does he mean by the great speckled bird? And it was constant questions.
CASEY SECOR: In terms of boundaries, have you experienced that Tim had difficulty with boundaries? Obviously, that's an example, but is there another example that you can tell the jury about that?
MICAH SUTTON: Not knowing when to say a thing or when not to say a thing. I remember sitting in the office with him and letting him -- just giving him examples of if someone says to you does this outfit look bad, you probably shouldn't just say yes. Just not knowing exactly how to interact with the outside world. One of the thoughts that I've had repeatedly about Tim 14 years ago is he looks like a -- he seems like a man that is trying to take the Bible and allow it to explain the world around him that he can't understand. And honestly, my regret is I was too young in ministry and knowledge of these types of things to even understand what was happening.
CASEY SECOR: Did Tim want to have a leadership role in the church?
MICAH SUTTON: He did. And, in fact, that's one of the things that precipitated his leaving because I would not allow him to take any leadership roles in the church.
CASEY SECOR: And I think you've described it to some extent already, but why -- in your estimation, why was he not suited for a leadership role?
MICAH SUTTON: The ability to know a lot about the -- the ability even to quote a lot of the Bible is a beautiful gift, but if it's not -- if you're not able to apply it properly and in a way both in personal expression and in explanation to others in a way that doesn't hurt them, but helps them move forward in their relationship with Christ, then it's not a beneficial thing at all. And so in the case of Tim, I felt he had great abilities in himself, but his capacity to help others move forward was limited to none.
CASEY SECOR: And tell the jury the other major event that resulted in him leaving the church.
MICAH SUTTON: Tim came to me one day and let me know that he was needing to potentially move on in his attendance because he felt like my wife of now 22 years and about six, five or six years was trying to seduce him. And we sat in my office and he explained to me how -- how she was wearing things and approaching him and communicating with him not in words, but just by actions and expressions to seduce him. And I explained to him that my wife is an extreme introvert. She is -- that is just -- number one, I trust her implicitly. Number two, it is just completely outside of her character to do something, and even her personality to do something of that nature. An example of that is when we first moved, we only had one person that actually came to church for the first little while. His name was Tom and Tom worked at a Starbucks. So I brought -- my wife said she wanted coffee, so I took her to that Starbucks where Tom worked and he is -- Tom -- and she went in and ordered our coffees.
And when she came out, I said, Did you meet anybody, see anybody you knew there? She said, No. I said, Did anybody try to talk to you? She said, Well, there was this one annoying man who kept chatting with me and, you know, trying to talk to me. I said, Well, did you recognize him? She said, No. And I looked in my rearview mirror and there was the only guy in the whole 12 million person city who was attending our church. And I said, Babe, there's one person out of 12 million that even cares that we're here doing this and you didn't recognize him? And Tom was in the door of the Starbucks waving at me like this. And I was like, man, that -- my point is just if my wife would miss somebody having that conversation, the idea of her trying to seduce is infallible to me. But yet, for him, it was his complete truth.
CASEY SECOR: Was there any way that you thought that you could have convinced him that was not true?
MICAH SUTTON: No. We talked for quite a while and I tried to convince him that that was not true.
CASEY SECOR: Did you feel as though, for Tim, being right was very important to him?
MICAH SUTTON: When Tim wanted to listen, Tim was an incredible student, but once Tim decided something was right, it was very difficult, if not impossible to break through that.
CASEY SECOR: I assume when you say right, right in his head, not what was actually right?
MICAH SUTTON: Correct. Living his truth, whatever his truth was in that moment.
CASEY SECOR: You've told me in the past the difference between what you said is calm Tim and not calm Tim. Can you explain to the jury that difference?
MICAH SUTTON: Tim had two sides. One minute, he would be calm, listening, open, engaged. If you said -- mentioned something to him, he would hear you, respond to you. But then he had another side of him that once that kicked in, it was very difficult to have any kind of legitimate communication with him. He would say to me sometimes whenever he would start getting frustrated -- and it seemed to escalate when pressure was on or what have you. And he would say, It seems like there's a monster inside of me trying to get out and I don't know how to stop it. And that was a phrase I've heard over and over to the point where I remember it clearly 14 years ago -- you know, 14 years later. And if was -- when that was going on, it was very difficult to communicate with him. And whatever I would say to him would not often be heard or received and it was -- it was as if almost it was no point in talking at all at that particular time, you know, until he calmed down again. Then if he calmed down, he would often come back and we could have a conversation at that point.
CASEY SECOR: Did you find that worship at the church or any of your activities at the church ever brought him solace, what you saw as solace?
MICAH SUTTON: Worship was important to Tim. And it's not just in the Pentecostal world, but one thing that we practiced at Center Point was speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. And when you talk about stuff like that, it's not -- it's more on a spiritual realm than it is on a practice realm, I would guess, for most people. But for those who are engaged in that, what, basically, you're doing is you're allowing God to speak through is, is the belief, is the concept and is the teaching that we see in scripture. So in that, praying in tongues was a big part of what Tim did. And he would seem calmer and he would calm down visibly as he would pray and worship and, specifically, speak in tongues.
CASEY SECOR: Did you feel like your church was a place where he was trying to find an identity?
MICAH SUTTON: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that -- when a church is small -- the church I pastor now is much larger and so I've -- and I've built churches over time, so I've seen the development of how this goes. But when you start a church from the beginning, oftentimes, you -- the churches, at first, people who don't have other places to go, maybe they don't fit in anywhere else. And our church in Chicago was very much a church with people that didn't seem to fit in in other places. And I think Tim was finding a place there. And I hope there will always be a place where those who feel like they are not welcome other places will find a place of welcome and rest.
CASEY SECOR: When Tim finally decided to leave the church, did you ever hear from or see him again after that?
MICAH SUTTON: I did not.
CASEY SECOR: And you did have a chance to talk to him this morning for the first time in however many years that is, over a decade?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes.
CASEY SECOR: And I just want you to explain to the jury the difference between the Tim you talked to today and the one that you knew then.
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor, I'm going to object to that. All these years gone by, I don't know that that's relevant, particularly the situation we're in. I think it's self-serving.
THE COURT: I think it is, too. I think you can rephrase the question and ask him if he noticed any difference, but I don't think he can offer an opinion.
CASEY SECOR: I didn't mean to ask you to offer an opinion. Do you notice things that are different between the Tim you knew then and the Tim you talked to today?
MICAH SUTTON: The Tim that I talked to today is very much the calm Tim that I may have witnessed 14 years ago.
CASEY SECOR: May I have just a moment, Your Honor. Thank you, Pastor Sutton. I appreciate it.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HUBBARD:
RICK HUBBARD: Pastor Sutton, you had a long drive to get here, didn't you?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: You're still in Ohio, right?
MICAH SUTTON: I'm in Ohio.
RICK HUBBARD: So Tim Jones wanted a leadership role in your church?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: And, obviously, you said -- you just didn't find that suitable and you said no?
MICAH SUTTON: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: And that was a source of conflict in addition to the other conflict you mentioned for him?
MICAH SUTTON: The second conflict came up after the first conflict.
RICK HUBBARD: Okay. But this was one that he took offense at, that he wanted a role, he wanted a leadership position?
MICAH SUTTON: Definitely something that he pushed, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: I believe -- we got it from someone else, I think from the Defense, but said that your observation of Tim is that he saw scripture as a method to gain control. Does that sound like the way he was viewing scripture?
MICAH SUTTON: Definitely as a way to interpret the world around him and try to fit into the world around him, I would say yes to that.
RICK HUBBARD: But would you say control, like, for instance, a leadership role to help control how a church is run?
MICAH SUTTON: Uh-huh, (Indicated in the affirmative.)
RICK HUBBARD: Control as to how his wife is to dress, that he set that standard for her? Does that sound right?
MICAH SUTTON: I think that he used scripture to try and give him the boundaries, the parameters to live life, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: As he saw fit?
MICAH SUTTON: As he interpreted the Bible to explain to him.
RICK HUBBARD: You mentioned that he had a phenomenal memory?
MICAH SUTTON: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: About how old was he when you first saw him?
MICAH SUTTON: Eighteen, his early 20's, I'm guessing.
RICK HUBBARD: Okay.
MICAH SUTTON: I don't know exactly.
RICK HUBBARD: And you're the one that married him and Amber?
MICAH SUTTON: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: And she was very different than Tim?
MICAH SUTTON: Again, I only knew her for a very short period of time.
RICK HUBBARD: But Tim Jones is a guy that he studied scripture. You said it was almost unusual because he just dove in and studied to look for answers, is that correct?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: So I guess the most basic question I have for you is do you think he understood that most basic of all concepts and all tenets, Thou shalt not kill?
MICAH SUTTON: Yes.
RICK HUBBARD: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down.
MICAH SUTTON: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.