7.Kerry Breen — Direct/Cross/Redirect
49 linesKERRY BREEN, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: If you'll have a seat over there, please. If you'll state your name and spell your last for the record.
KERRY BREEN: My name is Kerry Breen, last name is B-R-E-E-N.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. YOUNG:
BOYD YOUNG: Pastor Breen, can you tell the jury a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your background and how you came to be a pastor?
KERRY BREEN: I'm an ordained Assemblies of God minister. I came to South Carolina in 1994 to pastor a Central Assembly of God and stayed there until I retired. I left pastoral ministry in December of 2016, December 31st, 2016. During that time, my church was involved in ex-offenders. We started a substance abuse program that became probably one of the biggest substance -- faith-based substance abuse programs in Columbia. And was involved in helping people that had experienced problems in their lives. I became acquainted with Casey Secor because I was providing residential substance abuse treatment for men. And Richland County Public Defender's Office and the Solicitor's Office would place men that had substance abuse problems in my program. So that's kind of how I came to South Carolina, or my history.
BOYD YOUNG: How did you come to be a pastor? What was your background that led you into the ministry?
KERRY BREEN: I was a teenager and then I joined the Marine Corp in 1976, stayed with the Marine Corp for four years. During that time, I became a Christian and started attending the Assemblies of God church and felt called to the ministry. In 1980, I went to Bible College in Florida at Southeastern University and in 1983, I was ordained as a Pastor in Assemblies of God. I've pastored three churches in my career.
BOYD YOUNG: And were you contacted by my office in 2015 in relation to Tim Jones case and can you tell the jury what was going on?
KERRY BREEN: I was contacted by Mr. Young to see if I would consider providing spiritual support for Tim. And so I spent some time thinking about it. I had heard what had happened and I spent some time thinking about it and praying about it. And I felt like as a minister in Columbia that I had a responsibility to minister not just to people who didn't have problems, but people who did have problems. So I did make a commitment to visit Tim and provide spiritual support for Tim.
BOYD YOUNG: Is this after Tim had tried to commit suicide at the prison?
KERRY BREEN: Right.
BOYD YOUNG: Did you go meet with Tim?
KERRY BREEN: I did.
BOYD YOUNG: How many times did you meet with him?
KERRY BREEN: I can't remember exactly how many times, but it was between -- it was between, at least, 10 and 20 times that I met with Tim. I met with him at Kirkland and then I met with him at Lee County. So I met with him somewhere in that number.
BOYD YOUNG: And can you tell the jury about your meetings with Tim? What was that like? What did y'all do?
KERRY BREEN: Well, when I first -- when I first met Tim, he asked me, did you know what I did? And I said, yes, I did. And he said, will that affect you ministering to me? And I said, no, it won't. And I really -- honest, to tell you the truth, I did not spend a lot of time talking with Tim about the case. I felt it was my job to provide spiritual support for Tim, so I dwelt on -- what we did was we would read the scripture together. We would talk about the scripture. I taught Tim some Christian songs and we would sing them together. And we would end our meeting with prayer. And that really was the context of our meetings. There was one time where Tim did talk with me about what had happened, again, in a potential way and I did lead him in a prayer of forgiveness. But I did not make it my intention to focus on the case or what had happened, but to help him spiritually.
BOYD YOUNG: When you and Tim talked about his faith, did y'all talk about things like sparing the rod and women's place in the home or in the religion? Did those discussions come up?
KERRY BREEN: I can't say that we had a discussion about that per se. I do know that from talking with Tim, he had a very literal interpretation of the scripture. I did notice that it was black or white, there wasn't any gray area in between for Tim, which I think was a problem for his Christian life. Because I don't think we can approach -- first of all, I don't think we can approach the scripture with a literal interpretation. Jesus said a lot of things we can't literally apply. Jesus poke out your eye and cut off your hand. Well, if you do that, we'll all be blind and limbless. So that's a parable. So you can't take that as a literal. And as far as black and white thinking goes, I mean, people make mistakes. It's not yes or no. We make mistakes as human beings. And I think that did cause Tim problems in his life.
BOYD YOUNG: Are those beliefs that he espoused to, are those part of the Pentecostal faith?
KERRY BREEN: No. No. I'm part of the Assemblies of God. It's the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world with over 70 million adherents. One in four Christians in the world are Pentecostal. The Assemblies of God is second to the Catholic Church in adherents. And Assemblies of God does not believe in violence or extreme punishments of children. For the most part, we've been a nonviolent movement, so it's not a part of the Pentecostal Church. But there may be Pentecostals that have views like that.
BOYD YOUNG: Is Tim's faith real?
RICK HUBBARD: Objection, Your Honor. That would be speculation. I think anybody can answer--
THE COURT: -- rephrase it. You can ask something similar, but rephrase your question.
BOYD YOUNG: How did Tim express your faith? What did you think about it?
KERRY BREEN: I think that Tim had a real faith, but I think it was based in externals and not in internals. And I think that that's the failure of any kind of a religion. When it's only based in the externals and not in the internals, then we miss the truth of what faith is about. But I do think he had a very real experience and tried to -- tried to go to church and live out that faith.
BOYD YOUNG: Does Tim believe that he will be reunited or can be reunited with his children?
KERRY BREEN: Well, the Pentecostal religion believes that people can be forgiven and redeemed in heaven. I'm not necessarily -- I'm just talking about heaven, so Tim does believe that he's going to be reunited with his children. And I think the Bible does teach that.
BOYD YOUNG: Can Tim have a positive impact on other people in prison?
KERRY BREEN: I think he can. I think we've seen many men who have committed things -- done horrible things experience redemption. And they may not ever be able to be in society again, but they can be -- they can have a beneficial influence on other men that have committed crimes or acts that are considered to be horrible.
BOYD YOUNG: One second.
BOYD YOUNG: Thank you, Pastor Breen. Please answer any questions the State has.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HUBBARD:
RICK HUBBARD: Pastor, I understand you said that faith as you teach it and as you discussed it with Mr. Jones, there's nothing in your faith, the Christian faith as you know it that allows the mistreatment, brutal beatings or even killings of children, is that correct?
KERRY BREEN: Yes sir, I do not believe in that kind of behavior.
RICK HUBBARD: That a man should honor and love his wife, is that right?
KERRY BREEN: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: That children have a special place?
KERRY BREEN: I do believe that.
RICK HUBBARD: Thank you, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. YOUNG:
BOYD YOUNG: Pastor Breen, do things that happen to children matter or affect them later in life?
RICK HUBBARD: Objection, beyond my scope, beyond the scope of what I asked.
BOYD YOUNG: He asked if children --
THE COURT: Beyond the scope.
BOYD YOUNG: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down.
ROBERT MADSEN: We call Sergeant Barry Sowards.