7.Timothy Jones, Sr. — Direct/Cross (Part 1)
1,228 linesCASEY SECOR: Your Honor, the Defense calls Tim Jones, Sr. TIMOTHY JONES, SR., being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Have a seat, sir. Once you're seated, state your full name, spelling your last.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Hello. My name is Tim Jones, J-O-N-E-S.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, you have -- you've testified before in some hearings about this case, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Correct.
CASEY SECOR: And based on that testimony, we're going to begin -- we're going to begin your testimony around Timmy's birth, okay, which I understand is not your whole story, but it's the story from Timmy's birth forward. Is that okay with you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Who was Timmy's mom?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Cindy Granado.
CASEY SECOR: And how old were you and Cindy when you got together?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: We were 16, just about 17.
CASEY SECOR: And how quickly did y'all get pregnant after you met?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It wasn't very long. It was, you know, just a dating thing.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Tell the jury about Cindy when you --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, she was a lovely girl. I mean, I had known her, you know, through a few other people. She was very pretty, you know. Different ethnicity than me, but I sort of liked it.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Did she start to change when she was pregnant with Timmy?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, of course, you know, you're pregnant, so that and other things, yes.
CASEY SECOR: Did she start acting bizarrely or just normal --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I mean, I was a kid. I didn't know what a pregnant woman was supposed to act like anyway, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: So, you know, she'd get mad and cut up some clothes, I would think it was because she gained some weight.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. When Timmy was born, how did she interact with Timmy as an infant?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, when I was around, seemed to be a good mother, you know. Other people around, you know, they say no. But you also know mother-in-laws and father-in-laws. So I'm the guy that sort of believes, you know, out of a hundred percent, maybe 60/40, 70/30, but, you know, she seemed to be trying real hard.
CASEY SECOR: Did she seem to have motherly instincts in terms of being drawn to Timmy?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I mean, I thought so. But again, you know, I was a young -- I was a kid.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah, I understand. Did she start -- or did you start having problems in your relationship with Cindy?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, she was -- she was a bit violent, so, I mean, we had a lot of trouble that way. And then, you know, she did a lot of weird things with Timmy as it got -- you know, after about six months, eight months, a year.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It got a little crazy.
CASEY SECOR: And what do you mean by weird things?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, you know, wanted to feed him certain foods and actually make him flush hisself out. You know, you're going to flush out a one-year-old baby. He's going to flush hisself out, isn't it?
CASEY SECOR: So what do you mean? What would she give him to flush --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, she would give him laxatives and stuff.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And I didn't believe it. My mom actually told me. I was like, no, there's no way. And I asked her and she said, oh, yeah. I said, what, isn't that bad for him?
CASEY SECOR: Who were you and Cindy living with at this point?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: When Timmy was first born, we were living in my mother's basement.
CASEY SECOR: And where was that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: In Elk Grove Village.
CASEY SECOR: In Chicago?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, it's a Northwest suburb about maybe 20 miles out of Chicago, 25 miles out.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And did you -- so did you and your mom discuss Cindy's behavior or how she interacted with Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And did you and -- your mother's Roberta, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And did you and Roberta, did you disagree about how Cindy was treating --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Very much so.
CASEY SECOR: And did you think it was okay or did you think it was not okay?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I didn't really know, you know. So hindsight is 20/20, I found out later that, you know, what she was saying was true. She was doing all kinds of goofy -- I mean, giving him cold baths and stuff and, you know, yelling at him for crying. He's a baby. You got to pick him up once in a while. I understand don't pick him up too much. We know what that results in.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And you were working at the time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, yes. I've been working since I was 12.
CASEY SECOR: So Timmy was with Cindy during the day while you were at work?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And how old was Timmy when you and Cindy got pregnant for the second time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It wasn't long, you know. I got 11 months apart with Carolyn. It was probably the same area. I was a kid.
CASEY SECOR: Pretty close?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, can the Solicitor and I approach just for a quick moment?
THE COURT: Sure. (Whereupon, a bench conference was held in the presence of the jury but out of the hearing of the jury.)
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, you got pregnant for a second time, okay. And --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Pardon me?
CASEY SECOR: You and Cindy got pregnant --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: With William.
CASEY SECOR: -- for a second time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It was William. He was a baby.
CASEY SECOR: And we're not going to go into details, but that baby was lost, right? William was lost?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Correct.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And tell us about Cindy's behavior after William was lost?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, she sort of really -- I mean, she was really getting, you know, off the charts. Before pregnant one time, she cut up some clothes because I thought she gained some weight. Now, she cut up everything she owned. She was just -- she would just sit in the corner off by herself and the baby would be crying. I mean, just it was really messed up. So I thought something was wrong. Something's got to be wrong. I'm going to sleep with my eyes open.
CASEY SECOR: And why are you going to sleep with your eyes open?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Because she was just going off the charts with weird stuff. I mean, somebody takes scissors to cut up some clothes. She's in there with a knife. And she just really wasn't stable. I mean, I was scared.
CASEY SECOR: When you say that she would -- the baby would be crying, talking about Tim as a baby?
CASEY SECOR: And you're saying that she was not being responsive to him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No. I started coming home early from work and finding that, you know, this is getting really bizarre.
CASEY SECOR: And did you do something to try to get her help?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did.
CASEY SECOR: What did you do?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I signed her into a mental health facility.
CASEY SECOR: Where was that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Lexington Brothers Hospital, Elk Grove Village.
CASEY SECOR: And how long was she there?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It was like a week. It wasn't long.
CASEY SECOR: Did you --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I signed her out because she just -- I couldn't take it.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And once she got out, did she start disappearing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, that was the second phase of this whole thing, was now, you know, trying to work it out, trying to get her help. I mean, literally. She'd just take off, man. And she started taking off with the baby a couple times, you know, got the baby from her sister or something. Then it got progressively worse and she was -- you know, now she's like basically wanting to kidnap the baby and I'm like, come on now. And as we were living together, she left and she had taken everything I owned, you know, what we owned anyway. And drained the waterbed in the floor and she baked me a cake and left it in the living room floor.
CASEY SECOR: So that's -- when you came home and she was gone for good, that's what you found?
CASEY SECOR: And where was Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: With her.
CASEY SECOR: Did you know where she was or where Tim was?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Had no clue.
CASEY SECOR: And how long did that go on where you didn't know where she or Tim was?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, first, I stayed in the apartment for like two weeks, you know, clean it out, of course, you know. I didn't really want to tell nobody, you know, so I just stayed there to figure out what the hell I was going to do. And then moved back in with my parents, of course, because I couldn't find my wife. Her mom, Maggie, Linda, Martha, Robert, you know, they were all lying to me telling me they hadn't seen her, don't know where the kids are, you know.
CASEY SECOR: And during that period of time, tell the jury about where you saw a picture of Cindy.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, we were working one day with my cousin, Ricky Ames, and he come and told me I got something I got to show you, man. You ain't going to believe this. You know, it's been -- I don't know how many months we've -- I hadn't seen her or Timmy, for that matter. And they had found a picture of her in the back of a nudie magazine for a prostitute, I guess. I mean, she had an ad for nighttime -- what do you call them --
CASEY SECOR: There was a picture of her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, they had, like, a picture of a bunch of girls --
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: -- you can call for a date and her picture was in there.
CASEY SECOR: And during that period of time, as far as you knew, Tim was with her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Correct.
CASEY SECOR: And how old was he?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I want to say a year and a half, almost two maybe, two and a half. I mean, somewhere in there. I mean, it was sort of a time after all that that you really didn't want to try to remember him.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And where's the next time you heard -- where you actually knew where Cindy was?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I was working in Chicago and I got a phone call that said we have -- your wife, Cindy Jones, just gave us this number. This is the Fort Lauderdale Police and we picked her up for loitering.
CASEY SECOR: And what did you ask the police?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I told the police to tell her that I would be gladly willing to bail her out, however, I wanted the kid first.
CASEY SECOR: And what did the police say to you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He was a little stumped and I think sounded like he was a little pissed because there was no kid. He said, She ain't got no kid. She didn't say nothing about no kid.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And he said he would call me back.
CASEY SECOR: So what happened -- did you eventually -- where did you eventually find Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Pardon?
CASEY SECOR: Where did you eventually find Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, Tim, I found him at Maggie's, the mother's.
CASEY SECOR: Is that in Chicago?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, that was in Round Lake, Illinois.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And then what steps did you take to try to protect Tim at that point?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I got -- I did bail Cindy, you know, because I had my brother there, you know, half brother. And I told him hey -- he lived in Fort Meyer, so he went and got the bail money. I was like, look, here's a bus ticket as well. Just go ahead and put her on a bus, you know, and send her own back and we'll see what we can do. I'm assuming she's going to tell me where Timmy was, you know. So my brother gets her out and as soon as he gets her out, he calls me up and said, man, she runs like a deer, dude. As soon as she got out, she took off. So I said, you know, there's gotta be -- I've got to do something. I go get an attorney. Might as well get divorced, obviously. I mean, I really didn't want to get divorced, but it was pretty bad. And I did love the girl and I loved my baby. So I get an attorney, we go to court and the Judge says you filed for a divorce. Where is the party, you know, the wife? And I was like, well, I haven't seen her, you know. It's been, like, almost three months now.
And he says, well - he gave me custody papers over Timmy for temporary custody and says and then we'll see you back in six months. If this girl does not show up -- and I guess they subpoena her or whatever they do. And if she does not show up, we're going to consider her an abandoned mother. And so they give me a subpoena, I go to Round Lake, of course, and go to the police station and say I've got papers to get my son. You know, I know he's at that house, so on and so forth. They tell me okay, we can go over there with you, but unless -- you know, you can walk up with us, but when you open that door if you cannot see that child, we can't get him. You know, you can't just ambush her house. They're going to hide her, you know, now if they see me, see you. And he said well, that's the law. So as we walk up, they knock on the door and who looks through the blinds? Timmy. And that's how I got him.
CASEY SECOR: So you eventually -- through the court system, you got custody of him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, through the courts. And I had temporary custody, of course. I went back in six months, she didn't show. And I didn't hear from her for 20 something years. After it was all said done. I mean, there was a couple of times she would come back and we'd, you know, but nothing to -- you know what I mean. I knew it was over and she had totally went a different way. And I didn't want no child support, I didn't want nothing. I was just like, you know -- I thought it would be a lot easier to raise him.
CASEY SECOR: Who becomes at this point in Timmy's life -- and he's about what, three?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, two and a half, yeah.
CASEY SECOR: Who becomes sort of his default mother figure at that point in his life?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: My mother.
CASEY SECOR: And that's Roberta Thornsberry, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us about Roberta at that point in Roberta's life.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: When Timmy was born?
CASEY SECOR: No, no, no, when she sort of becomes his --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, oh.
CASEY SECOR: -- default mother figure, what's --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I mean, my mom's my mom. You know, it's like any of you guys' mom. I mean, come on. Your son comes home with a baby and he's the only one got him. I mean, what is your mom going to do? She's going to take over.
CASEY SECOR: Right.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And what is a teenage boy going to do? Well, I'm almost 20 by now. Still, you know, like, yeah, because I still was young, figured I still had a good life left. And a baby, you know.
CASEY SECOR: So you're saying she took on a big role in terms of --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, she took on a very big role, yes, you know, while I was there. We didn't stay there forever, you know what I mean.
CASEY SECOR: What was her relationship like with Larry at that point? Did they have problems?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, they've had problems all their life. So, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And I know that you obviously know the problems that Roberta and Larry have had, but the jury is not as familiar with it. But at that point in their life when Timmy is about three, is there still violence in that home?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, yeah. There's still violence in that home today. I mean, not major. She's older, they slowed down. That's their love for each other. It's weird.
CASEY SECOR: And what types of things happened between them, between Roberta and Larry?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: What do you want to know? I mean, as far as violence?
CASEY SECOR: Yeah.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, they just fight. My mom is a real dominant woman, you know. Of course, my dad, you know, he's my dad.
RICK HUBBARD: I'm going to object. Unless it pertains to the Defendant himself being there, I'm not sure there's relevance --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, my son was there when all this was going on.
THE COURT: Wait,--
CASEY SECOR: Timmy lived in that home?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: We lived in that home. We lived in that home a few times.
THE COURT: To the extent it's relevant, Tim present, Tim is not present.
CASEY SECOR: Stuff that Tim was exposed to as a child?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: In that home?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: True.
CASEY SECOR: Was there violence?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Off the charts.
CASEY SECOR: Was there alcoholism?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Off the charts.
CASEY SECOR: Was there drug use?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yep. Not no LSD and shit like that, no. No.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Now -- hang on just one minute. Was there a girlfriend that you had that your mother one time attacked?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. Yes.
CASEY SECOR: And Tim was present for that?
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Tell us about that.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Her name was Marie. I was with her for a while. My wife, Carolyn, knows her. And my mom and her -- my mom don't like anybody with her son. I mean, I'm 56 years old and she still don't like my wife now. I mean, that's just the way my mother is. So this girl disagrees with my mom and, of course, she's staying over there with us because she got kicked out wherever she was living. And next thing you know, she's all -- you know, she's beat up. You know, blacked her eye and slapped her around pretty good.
CASEY SECOR: And did you try to come to her defense?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did. As I was leaving, I was, like, yelling at my mom. You know, I was like, you know, why don't you hit somebody who can, you know, maybe hit you back. Man, she smacked me in the nose, made me buckle my knees and I just got in the car and left.
CASEY SECOR: Was that the first time she had ever hit you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, my mom's hit me before, but, I mean, not -- I mean, I did some shit wrong when I was young and my mom whipped my ass.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It's just the way it was for me anyway. I mean, my mother was -- you know, she definitely wore the pants in the family.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Tell us about Timmy growing up. What was he like as a child after he was living with you and Roberta and Larry? He's getting a little bit older, but still a child.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I mean, he was -- a child raising a child, I thought he was pretty good, you know. And next thing you know, he's smart as hell.
CASEY SECOR: Was he outgoing or was he shy?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, very shy. I babified him too much. I didn't want him to grow up like I did.
CASEY SECOR: Was he somebody that liked to be around others or was he more of a loner?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, he was definitely a loner. I mean, he had a few friends, but he had maybe two, three tops. He couldn't have more than three friends because it was like they couldn't give all their attention to each other, I guess.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And was he a loud kid or a quiet kid?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He was loud, you know -- I mean, quiet. You know, he could be loud once in a while, but he was pretty sneaky.
CASEY SECOR: And as a kid when he starts getting into school, is he a kid that cares about school or a kid that --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, man, he's just -- you know, you couldn't be prouder.
CASEY SECOR: Did you think that he was exceptionally smart?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us about the first computer you ever got Tim.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I got it for him for, I don't know, whenever he asked for it because he was just going to be -- I mean, he was just that smart. So I got him -- and I spent like $2,000 on this. And this is back -- you know, quite a ways back, probably about 10 grand now, you know. And he got it, he was all excited. I was down there helping him hook it up. And I don't know nothing about no computer. I took typing in school, failed, you know, so. I go downstairs and he's got this thing taken apart. I mean, piece -- there's pieces everywhere. And I was like, what are you doing? I'm fixing it. I just bought it, how are you fixing it? Well, it needs this and it needs that. I ain't buying you another, man, so I don't know what to tell you. I came down the next morning and it was all put back together. And he was showing me how he made it faster, did this and that, you know.
CASEY SECOR: The jury has heard from Carolyn already today about that period in your life. I just want to ask you a little bit about it.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Sure.
CASEY SECOR: Was Timmy jealous of Carolyn and your two new boys?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Timmy was jealous of anybody that had -- you know, with me. And that's where I -- I want to believe everything my son tells me, you know, that's the way you want to be, of course, just like any parent would want, right? But, you know, I know he was jealous and -- you know, so you listen to so much, right? Kids just jealous, so, you know, I think there was a lot of hearsay--
CASEY SECOR: Okay. During that period of time, you and Carolyn had some serious problems in your marriage. We heard about all that.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I was not a really good husband, you know. I probably wasn't much better of a dad at that point because losing my sister, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And I let things sort of get away from me, I guess.
CASEY SECOR: And there were people in your family that suffered because of the way you were at that time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Of course.
CASEY SECOR: And was Timmy around when there was violence between you and Carolyn?
CASEY SECOR: And Tyler and Travis, too?
CASEY SECOR: And on, at least, a couple of occasions, you were arrested for domestic violence charges?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I mean, but -- yeah.
CASEY SECOR: And those resulted in convictions, right, two of them did?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I had to take some anger management classes and stuff, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I'm not proud of it.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Then I lost my brother.
CASEY SECOR: I know.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: So it continues.
CASEY SECOR: I know. And that was Little Larry, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Correct. You talk about jealous, those two were jealous over each other. Good God.
CASEY SECOR: Little Larry and Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, yeah. It was a tug of war.
CASEY SECOR: And how far apart were the deaths of Elaine and Little Larry?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Seemed like yesterday, but four or five years maybe.
CASEY SECOR: Not long, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, not long, no.
CASEY SECOR: And how did their deaths affect your mom?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Killed her. It just -- you know, losing a child is losing a child, man.
CASEY SECOR: But did she get more out of control?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, of course, you know, because Elaine really -- I mean, we watched Elaine die, basically. And I took videotapes of her as she was dying to give to her kids, you know --
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: -- stuff like that. You know, talk about birthday, you know, birthday and stuff like that. So when you watch something like that happen, it's pretty -- I mean, I don't know how strong everybody is, but it took a toll on us.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And around the time that Elaine died was Tim's first car accident, right?
CASEY SECOR: And you've already said that, you know, growing up he was shy and a loner and quiet and worked hard in school?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: Are those things that changed after his car accident?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Everything seemed to change after his car accident. You know, I mean, it was just -- to me -- I mean, he was turning into an adult. He was smart, almost -- well, too smart for his shoes, I used to say, you know. And, unfortunately, I didn't teach him no common sense.
CASEY SECOR: And you're saying becoming an adult, but he was only 15 at the car accident, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, but I mean, hey, I was an adult at 15. I promise you.
CASEY SECOR: Good point. But at the time, the changes that you saw in Tim, did you think they were because of the car accident?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No. No. And again, you've seen the pictures earlier, right? You seen him in the cast, but you didn't see nothing wrong with his head. I mean, there was a Band-aid up there. You know, only thing -- like I told you, the only thing I can -- is it stayed, his head grew, I mean, because it progressively got worse.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And I didn't really so much, because he was off to school and he used to have hair. And back in the 70s, we really believed in hair, so. But, you know, he didn't -- I just didn't see it. And I don't even know what time -- I mean, it was just -- I don't know when I really noticed, but there was one day I just looked over and said, what in the hell happened to your head? Man, you get in a wreck or something? And he said, no, that's from the car wreck. Like I said, I don't remember how old he was, but I was -- I was amazed. I couldn't believe it.
CASEY SECOR: So the things that changed about him, you didn't think it was the car accident, you thought it was --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I thought it was adolescence, you know, manhood.
CASEY SECOR: At that point, going forward in Tim's life, was he somebody that acted his age?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, hell no. Still don't.
CASEY SECOR: And how does he act relative to his age?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, Timmy is 26 going on 16. He just, you know, the mind of a giant, body of a baby.
CASEY SECOR: And you said that you didn't feel like he had common sense. What -- give us an example of that.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, stealing the car. You going to steal a car, right? Who the hell steals a car in the winter with the car is running and there's another car running next to it? You steal this one and the guy just got behind and followed him, called the cops. That's when he went to jail and everybody says it was prison.
CASEY SECOR: Right. When it comes to stuff that you're good at, work around construction and stuff like that, could he help you when it came to stuff you wanted --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Sure. I taught him -- I mean, he wasn't the best guy, but he does some math. He could lay it out, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Right. But did you have to instruct him on how to do things?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, kids don't want to listen to their dad, you know. I had one teenager tell me they were going to put a cap in my ass once. My son. That's a different one, but my son.
CASEY SECOR: What about his work? Did he start getting jobs? How did that go?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, Timmy, he's a hard-working young man. Everything he does is a hundred percent. I disagree with a lot of folks that says that every goal he set, he made, no.
CASEY SECOR: Did he keep the same --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Navy Seal, no.
CASEY SECOR: Did he keep the same job for a long period of time when he was a teenager or did he go from job to job?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, you know, I mean, I sort of felt like that was the right way to do it anyway. He was a journeyman, you know, he was just feeling it out. He ain't going to work at the grocery store all the time. You know, try a restaurant, you know, or this guy do some shingle humping, stuff like that. Makes you more well-rounded, I think.
CASEY SECOR: What about the choice to join the Navy, was that a good choice in your mind?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Hell, no.
CASEY SECOR: Why not?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I know they tried to twist Carolyn up here, but, you know, the boy wasn't physically made for it. Again, what, ten percent of them make it? You know, he weighs a buck and a quarter. I'm like, dude, as soon as they put that log on you, you're done.
CASEY SECOR: So did you think that his goal of being a Navy Seal was realistic?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I didn't tell him that, but there was no chance.
CASEY SECOR: So were you surprised when he came home so quick?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That, I was surprised about. I mean, I figured he would make it through, at least, boot camp, shit, you know.
CASEY SECOR: And when he comes home, what's your relationship like?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, he's pissed off, of course. He's really pissed off at me, I guess, probably because I said, you know -- I mean, I basically told him when he went -- matter of fact, there's pictures of us when we went to the baseball game with his little brothers. I'm a White Sox fan. And that's where we gave him his send off. And all I ever asked was like, do you have a backup plan because, you know, what if you don't make it? Oh, no, I'm going to make it. I was like eeh, you know. He kept saying, I'm going to make it. And, of course, I leave there saying better come up with something else because he's not going to make it.
CASEY SECOR: So you said he didn't have a backup plan?
CASEY SECOR: Now, what does he start getting involved in once he doesn't make it in the Navy?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, then, he comes out, of course, and he's just -- you know, he was per se living with me and Carolyn because we're having our issues as it is. He's just in and out, all over the place, you know, hanging with the wrong crowd. And, you know, I mean, it's like you just don't see nothing good coming out of it. Here's a kid that went through his junior year of high school who was going to be anything he wanted, anything he wanted. He was going into physics.
CASEY SECOR: And did he start getting -- well, you already mentioned the car, but did he --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, he started hanging with the wrong people and drinking and smoking, you know, doing the shit his dad did, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Did you see him arguing with law enforcement officers sometimes?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, and that -- I mean, it was like -- I know you're referring to when he got arrested with the strippers.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You know, sorry, ladies, but as a dad, you know, you don't think it's that big of -- you know, I was like, okay. So when I go, I pick him up and I talk to the officers, of course. And they're you know -- once again, sorry, ladies, but the officer was like look, it's nothing. We're going to slap his hand and let him go. And, you know, I'm like thank you and I'll have a talk with him. And he's -- you know, as they're bringing him out, he starts cussing and yelling at the cops. And I tell him, look, they're letting you go, man. Shut up, you know. What are you doing? You don't know -- I was like, shut the fuck up, okay. Let's get out of here before you go to jail. So, of course, we argue all the way home. And I'm going there with the intention of saying, you know, okay, you go to strip clubs, but don't sit out in the parking lot with -- in the car with alcohol in there. I mean, damn. And, you know, it just turned into a big fight after that.
CASEY SECOR: He eventually gets locked up, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: For that one?
CASEY SECOR: Well, no, I'm sorry, for the cars and the --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, well, the car thing was -- again, I was a role in that, too. He has my name, Timothy Jones, Jr. Hell, I didn't think nothing about it, man. I did my checkbook in my head for years. So I guess he got a little math from me maybe, but not very good. Because now, all of a sudden, you know, you miss $20, $20 bucks, eeh, you know, I must have made a mistake here, $30 or $40 here or there. Next thing you know -- what Carolyn was referring to was -- I want to say it was $2800 to bail his friend out of jail with my checks and my name that he's been writing for, like, a year. You know, and I find out because I start looking, it's like, holy -- you know, just off the charts, you know. At the time, we're trying to buy a house, so they're like well, you've got two options here, either you press charges against him or we press charges against you because somebody -- you know, the bank's gonna -- they want one of you. I didn't have the money because I had already put down on this house. So it was like -- it was a big mess. And Timmy stole this van before -- you know, before this all started, he stole a van at a college party. And it was a van for the University. So he's off with his friend's partying, having a good old time and they get pulled over in this van. Cop pulls him over, checks him out, tells him okay, slow down. Sends him on his merry little way. They hadn't called the van in stolen yet. So that's when he decided, I guess, to get brave when he was back home and takes the car that was in the driveway. Well, again, he took the wife's car, the husband got in his car, followed him, called the police. They picked him up right there.
CASEY SECOR: So between the cars and the checks and the drugs, he ends up getting about a one-year sentence, is that about right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, actually, I think it was like a boot camp, you know, something like that.
CASEY SECOR: Right. But a one-year sentence, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when the -- even before he actually got sentenced, I took his two brothers and went through McHenry County jail, sat in front of them and told them, you know -- and I still believe this to this day, look, you did the crime, you do the time.
CASEY SECOR: Right.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You know, you give us a call when they're setting you free, you know, we'll pick you up. You know, I told his brothers, say goodbye to your brother.
CASEY SECOR: And were you there for him -- were you there for Tim when he was released.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Just like I said, yes.
CASEY SECOR: What was the biggest change in Timmy when you see him when he gets released?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: The religion.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us about it.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, man. Where you want me to begin? Shit. Well, you guys met his priest the other day, didn't you.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Right. Well, me and that guy, we really -- you know, we clashed right away because Timmy goes and finds this church and he's the pastor. All of a sudden -- you know, I've got his brothers there. I'll still trying to get him back to somewhat of a normal life. I'm like, look, you can fix this. You know, it's not a big deal because you're smart as hell, man. I mean, you shouldn't be here, but. You can't go swimming with them. You can't -- you can't go places -- you can't see any kind of flesh of a woman, you know, bikini or any shit like that. So I was like we'll go at night, you know. No, we can't do that. And I talked to his pastor, I was like, man, what are you teaching my son? Oh, this is the way we believe and this and that. I'm a Baptist. And, I mean, come on, man, this is crazy, you know. So his pastor -- I mean, to me personally, I thought it was a damn cult. And I talked to this guy, and he's changed his whole world because, you know, he pretty much thought he was in a damn cult.
CASEY SECOR: And was Timmy -- when he gets out, is he still drinking and doing drugs?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, no. I mean, look, he didn't drink and do drugs before. All this shit happened all because -- you know, because he didn't make it in the military thing. The high school thing, he started hanging -- like I said, in there with a couple bad kids. I think they got him with a little bit of marijuana and maybe a little bit of cocaine. It was never no damn crack or acid or nothing like that. You know, I mean, he did -- he was just so religious now. I mean, it was like I'm trying to get back to my son, you know, go have some fun or something, you know. Not doing drugs or nothing, but just to have fun. And he just could not do nothing but sit there with that Bible. I mean, it was like what are you doing, you know? I mean, you got to spend some time with us. He just went to church and the Bible and that was it. He had to live with me because he was under house arrest for a while. That was a condition.
CASEY SECOR: And it's around that time that he meets Amber, right?
CASEY SECOR: And how did you feel about their -- them getting married at first?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I didn't like it. I didn't like it one bit. I begged them not to, but I'm also the one that took them.
CASEY SECOR: Did you think they were too young?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, not just -- no, not just too young, but he wasn't in the right place to get married. I didn't know this girl. I mean, I still yet to meet her parents man. I mean, come on.
CASEY SECOR: Now, what did you -- what was your name to refer Amber and Tim's kids collectively? What did you call them?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: What did I call them?
CASEY SECOR: Yeah.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: They're my babies.
CASEY SECOR: You called them your babies?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: And where was -- where were you and Julie when Merah was born?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I believe we -- we lived down there, excuse me, and then we'd go there.
CASEY SECOR: And they lived in Pennsylvania?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And were you the first people to them after Merah was born as far as you know?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I'm pretty sure, yeah. I thought maybe I'd meet -- because she's from Pennsylvania. Maybe that's why they moved down there, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. What about when Eli was born, were you there for that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You know what, I was there for all them. I mean, in my heart, I was there for all them, so it don't matter.
CASEY SECOR: But physically, you were there when Eli was born?
CASEY SECOR: And your wife, Julie, was there, too?
CASEY SECOR: And that was in Mississippi, wasn't it?
CASEY SECOR: And what about when Nahtahn was born, were you and Julie there, too?
CASEY SECOR: When Amber and Tim and Merah, Eli and Nahtahn lived in Mississippi, did they come and visit you sometimes?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Every weekend. While Timmy was still going through school. When Timmy was talking to me, of course.
CASEY SECOR: When you say when Timmy was talking to you, what do you mean?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, he was my son, so if I pissed him, you know, I couldn't -- you know, 26 going on 16, you know, I had to treat him like a young little boy. If I didn't give him his damn way, he wouldn't -- he just wouldn't talk to me. He wouldn't see me. You know, I'd go to the house and try to apologize, he still wouldn't -- you know, he just didn't care. He was pretty hard headed.
CASEY SECOR: Do you remember -- after Nahtahn was born, do you remember if Amber had a miscarriage?
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And do you remember whether or not Tim and Amber named that baby?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: They did.
CASEY SECOR: Tell the jury how that miscarriage affected Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, shit, man. I mean, I was -- you know, of course, we lost William, you know, with Cindy. And when it happened, you know, I mean, William, he was eight months old, so we actually had to do the whole little shindig. And -- I don't mean it like that --
CASEY SECOR: When you say shindig, do you mean funeral?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. I mean, it was like a little mock funeral. I mean, again, we were kids.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: But I'd always remembered something the doctor told me, you know. And he was damn right on it, too. He was like, you know, sometimes the Lord has a way of taking care of things you can't.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And that was something -- did you tell Timmy that trying to make him feel better?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes. It didn't help. He was off the charts. I mean, you'd thought he lost his -- me or something, you know.
CASEY SECOR: And when you say off the charts, are you talking about sad?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, God. I never seen nothing like it. I mean, even my wife was like (shrugs shoulders).
CASEY SECOR: Have you ever seen him as upset as he was by that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, not that, like, no, not like crying. He was just devastated. I mean, personally -- again, I feel terrible for even saying this, but I'm thinking, you know, my God, you know, once again, the Lord has a way of taking care of things that you don't. You don't need more kids. There's even some letter somewhere that Amber had wrote saying, Dad should leave us alone and let us have more kids. Why? He's still in school, man. Stop.
CASEY SECOR: At this point, how do you feel about Timmy as a father to Merah, Eli and Nahtahn?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I didn't think either one of them were worth -- worthy enough to raise the kids. And I told them that.
CASEY SECOR: Did you think that his religious views were a problem in terms of his parenting?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did.
CASEY SECOR: And tell us why.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, you know, spare the rod bullshit, that's bullshit. You know, you don't need to be hitting no kid. And that shit didn't happen at my house. And again, Timmy did it once, I gave him shit, I don't see him for six months.
CASEY SECOR: Did he have the kids celebrate Christmas?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He did for me per se because I pretty much forced it, you know what I mean. There was even times I got pissed off and say you know what, screw it, man. I tried to read The Night Before Christmas and he would just interrupt me and interrupt me, oh, that's a lie. You don't know -- that ain't in the Bible. You know, screw it, I ain't going to read it. That happened once.
CASEY SECOR: So he was -- you felt like everything had to be decided through the lens of the Bible?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Timmy thought he was going to live and breath every page of that damn Bible. And look, like I said, I'm Baptist and I preached to this boy, look, the Bible is a guideline to life. For every ying, there's a yang. You know, you cannot live it, it's impossible. And right now, a modern woman is not going to live with you like that. You can't keep her -- never cut their hair, you know. I mean, why don't you just go and be Amish. I mean, because I talked to my friend and he was like, yeah, you know, only difference is we don't have electric. You know, because he was -- you know, Amber agreed with that shit. I'm like oh, God, man, what's wrong with you? If he loves you, he'll do whatever you want as far as -- if a man loves a woman, let's face it, he's going to follow her to the end of the earth.
CASEY SECOR: Did you see him combining physical discipline of the kids with preaching to them?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I heard it once and seen it -- well, sort of heard it, seen it at the same time, yeah. He had spanked Merah and I walked in because I heard it, you know, and that wasn't going to happen. As I walk in, he started preaching to her. And I was like -- man, I got really pissed. You going to beat her ass and then you're going to preach to her? That's bullshit. What did she do? I mean, I don't even remember what she done because it didn't matter. I was like, you know, you can't do that. You know, it's just not going to work.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: But I mean, Timmy believed in this so hard is because Amber had him believing in it as well. I mean, she was a big part of this. Timmy, you know, he wanted to make her happy. He truly thought she was happy that way. I knew she wasn't. You know, I could see it. I talked to the girl. You know, it was a train wreck.
CASEY SECOR: Now, Timmy gets a job in South Carolina, right?
CASEY SECOR: And he and Amber and Merah, Eli and Nahtahn move to South Carolina, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I moved them here.
CASEY SECOR: You moved them there?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, me and my wife and my kid.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Sorry, didn't mean to move them here.
CASEY SECOR: And you -- tell us about coming to visit them and trying to help with their home here in South Carolina?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, let's start where it starts, you know. Tim comes back from North Korea or something, you know, doing something with school, Mississippi State, because, you know, his accolades are off the charts again. I mean, this kid, anything he wanted. His mind was just so sharp. And man, I said this same shit, too, all his life. I said, man, you know, fine line, man, you're riding the rail, you now, just don't fall off of it. And I was so proud of him, man. It's like he got what he wanted. He got the job at Intel. You know, they're going to give him a little money to move here and so on and so forth. You know, Timmy seemed to be, you know, really going in the right direction, right pace. You know, it was like -- you know, again, smart people are sort of fragile, if you know what I'm saying. And Amber, 360, man. She was just so pissed. I mean, she thought that this was it. He finally got a big Intel job, you know, my life is -- I'm going to get some nannies and, you know, big beautiful home.
And I'm like, honey, that's -- you ain't going to be able to do that for a while, but you know what, hey, it is going to happen. It's there, you know. He'll probably start out $80,000, $90,000 a year. Before you know it, he'll be whatever he wants. And when she found out he bought that trailer over there, oh, God, you should have seen it. I mean, she was so pissed. And then, of course, they were fighting all the time over it. You know, I'm talking to her saying look, I'm going to come help you, man. You know, I'll come down there. I brought them washer, dryer, stove, refrigerator, I mean, I put in a new toilet, sink. I mean, I was doing everything I could do, you know. Timmy was helping, you know. But Amber just didn't -- you know, I just seen something in her at that time, I knew it was, once again, a train wreck. She just didn't give a shit. She wasn't going to touch nothing. She hated it. And she didn't want to be there.
CASEY SECOR: But, I mean, the place was in rough shape, was it not?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It was real bad, man, real bad. I mean, I stayed there for a week and I think the day I left, I got it to where, you know, you could, at least, use the bathroom and stuff. But, I mean, it wouldn't take much. I mean, I own a little construction company, you know, it can be done.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And I had faith in Timmy. He really wanted it. But Timmy, once again, he set that goal thing they're talking about, he gets a little too high. Look, you got to -- you chop your tree down here. You just don't chop the whole -- you got to do a little at a time. And Amber didn't want it. And Timmy loved it. It was almost like watching Green Acres.
CASEY SECOR: When you and Julie went to their new home and did things around the house to help --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, not just around, outside, too. I mean, man, a week of hard -- I mean, I felt like I was at boot camp. Clean it up.
CASEY SECOR: When you left to come home to Mississippi and when you came back to visit again --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, when I -- when we were finishing up, I said well, all right -- it was the weirdest little thing because it was just something -- you know, it was simple, man. I mean, there was some garbage over there and I had swept it up and put it into the corner because I couldn't find a dustpan. I told Amber, I said, look -- as we're leaving, I said -- she said, you don't have to do that, I'll do that. Yeah, right. And I sweep it into the corner. I was like, yeah, we'll be back in about two weeks -- I still got my other job, my company to run -- and we'll do more, you know. You know, we'll start working on the outside because it was like trees everywhere. And it was real bad because there was a lot of glass and stuff, so I was scared for the kids, so we cleaned out a good section and fenced it off a little bit.
And that little pile of dirt -- and the countertops -- because I put in a new stove and the countertops, of course, you ever take out a stove, you notice it's got a lot of grease right there and it's just a little gunked up. I was like Amber, clean this up, you know. She was like, I will. And we'll be back in a couple of weeks. I come back in two weeks and that shit is still there and that damn little pile of dirt that I swept in that corner is still there. So at that point, I knew -- you know, that's when me and Julie started talking, you know, what are we going to do? I mean, this is not -- this is ugly. I mean, she's doing nothing. Now, Tim can't work and do his damn job, straight out of college because he's going to have to bust his ass, you know, make sure he's trying to make a name for hisself, and come home and do this, too. You know, she's not -- she don't give a shit. I mean, I'm telling you. I told my wife, I said, she gave up a long time ago, man. When she was at home and she knew she was getting that trailer, she was one pissed woman. And there's nothing worse than a scorned woman.
CASEY SECOR: But you weren't happy with it as a place for your grandbabies?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I wasn't happy for it for none of them, but, you know what, it could be temporary. It was a beautiful -- you know, Timmy had a good little plan. He was like, you know, he's paying cash for everything. So, you know maybe four or five grand to pay it off. Well, that's a good plan, because you just dump money after money into it, you know, you put five or six grand in anything, you know, you can make it look better.
CASEY SECOR: Not long after that, their marriage falls apart, right?
CASEY SECOR: And was Timmy devastated by that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He acted like he wasn't, you know. Once again, here it comes -- again, we see it coming, it's a big shit sandwich coming our way and, you know, these babies are going to be in the middle of it. So it happens. Tim says, she's having an affair. I sort of made a joke, like how in the hell did she have an affair, ain't nobody out there, you know. And there really wasn't. It was like this house and this house next to it. And he was like, it was the neighbor. And I'm thinking well, ain't he a little old? And he's like, no, it was the neighbor's son. I said, you talking about the teenage boy? He said, yeah. And I was like, look, let her take the kids, pay your child support, be the hero every two weeks. That's the best advice I can give you, because, you know, that's a lot of children. And once again, of course, I hate to say it, but I'm like, I told you so, you know, dammit.
You can't have so many kids until -- especially with the relationship -- I mean, hell, they met, a week later, they got married. That just don't last anyway. You don't know nobody. But after all the years and Amber had stayed, it seemed like she wanted to be that way. I mean, she just 360'd. She did not want -- I mean, she wanted to be able to wear jeans and, you know, show some cleavage. I think that's just the kind, I mean, I talked to her. I love her, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to bash her in no form, way or fashion. I'm just saying they -- they short of bullshitted each other, you know what I mean. They shouldn't have been together. And so now the kids are the ones tore in the middle. And Timmy is absolutely apeshit for his kids. And this is -- I mean, you can come by my house, I'll show you 50 people that will tell you the exact same thing, you know. And they're all freaked out by it. They just can't believe it because -- you know, he said I want to take my kids.
And I'm like, well, get ready. He was like, what you mean? I said, I hope you got a lot of damn money because, man, you can't take a kid from his mom. I was like, Dude, that's like impossible, you know. And it was just like no time, all of a sudden he -- you know what I mean, he's got custody of all three, you know, all three kids. He didn't take them, she was going to give them to him or some shit. I was like, what? I don't think she even filed yet. She literally said, you can, you know, take them. And so now, I'm like, oh, you know. What are you going to do? Well, he takes his brother with him and they go get the kids and bring them back, you know. I'm just -- I mean, you could knock me over with a feather. Because I just don't know no one -- I've never met any woman that I've known in my life, other than my grandmother, that didn't fight for her kids.
CASEY SECOR: Did you keep in touch with Amber after they separated?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I didn't really keep in touch with her after, you know, Timmy got the kids. Well, I guess, she changed her mind for some reason or another -- I don't know, maybe it was about four, because we went and got Gabriel after that. We'll start from there, that way it will be a little easier. We went -- so Timmy got the three, right? And I'm like, okay, you know. He said, I got to go get Gabriel. I was like, Tim, man, that one's in diapers, man. I mean, we just now getting through that, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Let me just ask you, is this the summer of 2012?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: This is the summer they split up, so whenever that was.
CASEY SECOR: Right.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, I really didn't keep up with years and all that because I was just having too much fun with my kids and shit.
CASEY SECOR: But Merah, Eli and Nahtahn come to --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, they're all three with me.
CASEY SECOR: In Mississippi?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. You know, and Timmy, too, of course. Timmy's there.
CASEY SECOR: With Julie?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: With Julie and our children, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And the plan is for them to stay there for the summer with you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, whatever. You know, I'm trying to get Timmy, you might as well quit your job. I own a house next door. You can move over there because, shit, man, you're going to need some help. Three kids is a lot.
CASEY SECOR: But he's still working in South Carolina?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Right.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And during that time, Gabe is in South Carolina?
CASEY SECOR: And how did Gabe wind up coming to Mississippi also for that summer?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I literally argued with Timmy for a day or two, you know, because he was like, I'm going to get Gabriel. And I'm -- don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to hurt the baby. It was like surely to God, she can take care of one damn baby, right, I mean. And, man, why would you take all the responsibility away, son? You know, not to mention, you're going to be working and we got to watch all these babies. Not that we care, but what -- I mean, what the hell are you going to do? You know, I mean, let mom have the baby. He's young. He really needs to be with his mother. And he fought me and said, No, I'm going. You can go or not go. So, all right. So we go out -- I want to say it was a Sunday or Monday, you know, whenever we get, me, our son, Chad, and Timmy. And we pull up to the trailer and, I mean, it's just a wreck. I mean, now what -- the little bit we had fixed, I don't know how in the hell they did what they did. I mean, it was just -- it looked like a damn bomb went off.
So I was like, she's living here? And he's like, yeah. Well, we go in there and, sure enough, you got to walk through a little opening here. And as soon as -- I mean, as soon as you like turn the corner, you can't get in for the clothes, the garbage and the shit. And then there's a playpen sitting right there and she's sitting on the couch with a beer in her hand. And I look over there and sort of shaking my head. I walk over to the fridge, the first thing I do. I do it with all the kids, they get pissed at me, but I want to make sure they got food. And I open the door and there's beer sitting there. So I look over and she's like, oh, it's Tim's fault. He don't buy no food, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And these guys been separated for a while, so I mean, I was like, look, what ever Amber. I go over there and pick up Gabriel and I hate -- this sounds -- and I'm not making it up.
I picked that baby up and I swear it was like I dumped him in water and pulled him up in the air, that's how much piss rolled off him. And I looked at her and I say, you change this fucking baby right now. I'm out of here -- I go out. I couldn't believe it, you know. Timmy's still in love with her, you know. So he's like, you know, but he wants to show he can be whatever the hell I guess she wants him to be or something. I don't know what they were trying to do, but he still loved her. And so I get on the phone right away, of course, I'm talking to my wife. I was like, man, I can't fucking believe this out here. I mean, this is just ridiculous --
THE COURT: Salty language, slow it down. You're too salty. A Sorry. So I tell her I can't believe what's going on here. I mean, I never seen a place this dirty. You wouldn't recognize it. And about that time, this little boy comes walking out of the house.
CASEY SECOR: What do you mean this little boy?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: The neighbor boy. I don't know his name.
CASEY SECOR: Is this --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: The one she was having an affair with, because I asked him. I was like, who are you? He's like -- I mean, he's in his sock feet, you know. And he wasn't in the area we walked in, of course. I mean, I walked in the kitchen area and in the living and he wasn't in there, so he had to be in the bedroom or the bathroom or something. He comes out and I asked, you know, who are you a little harder. And he walks up and he's like, you know, I'm the neighbor. I was like, are you the boy screwing around with my daughter-in-law? And he was like, yes sir. And I asked him even how long and he was like, six months.
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor, Your Honor, I think we're getting a little side tracked. Let's get back to --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: This has effected Timmy, man. I'm telling you, he went nuts.
THE COURT: Hey, I'll deal with the lawyers. You just answer questions, okay?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, I'm sorry.
THE COURT: This is -- you answer the questions they're asking you. Let's redirect it back to the subject matter at hand, please.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Rather than going into what people are saying, okay, what I want you to tell the jury is, was there a confrontation between Timmy and this guy that Amber was having -- or was together with at that point?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No. I mean, that's what I -- no.
CASEY SECOR: And why was that -- why did that surprise you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I think it would surprise anyone, wouldn't it? You walked in and caught your wife with another guy.
CASEY SECOR: And then, so did you bring Gabe back to Mississippi?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: We did.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And that was to be with his siblings for the summertime?
CASEY SECOR: Or, I guess, at that point, it was --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He was to be with us because that baby was in trouble.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And shortly after you got back to Mississippi with Gabe, did Amber come to see you in Mississippi?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She did.
CASEY SECOR: And again --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She decided --
CASEY SECOR: I'm not going into what people say, but --
RICK HUBBARD: Objection to relevance of this.
CASEY SECOR: It's been testified to.
RICK HUBBARD: If the Defendant is not there, what's the relevance?
CASEY SECOR: It's an event that's been testified to already.
RICK HUBBARD: It's --
THE COURT: Hang on, Solicitor. We've been going about an hour and ten minutes. Let's take a break, kind of get back on our feet. Y'all step in the jury room. Don't talk about the case. (Whereupon, the jury was excused from the courtroom for a break.)
THE COURT: Mr. Secor, what was your question that the Solicitor objected to? What was the objection?
CASEY SECOR: It was asking about how after Mr. Jones, Sr. brings Gabriel from South Carolina back to Mississippi where Merah, Eli and Nahtahn are at Mr. Jones' house for the summer. I was going to ask him about Amber Kyzer coming to try to get her kids from Mr. Jones, Sr., which is something that Ms. Kyzer testified to, that she drove to Mississippi to get the kids.
RICK HUBBARD: I just don't know how that's relevant. How is that relevant to--
THE COURT: I don't want to get too in-depth of the custody dispute, but the temporary custody had already been decided at that time, had it not?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, sir.
CASEY SECOR: I'm trying to think.
THE COURT: You hush while we are--
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: I'll have to check the date of the official custody, but I don't believe by the summer of 2012, I don't believe it had been --
THE COURT: I thought he had temporary custody already.
RICK HUBBARD: He did.
THE COURT: And temporary versus permanent is one thing in family court. A temporary order or emergency order of some type had been filed because she had no money to fight it, that's what she said.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: Part of my objection is this. Obviously, Amber's not here, so the way this is laid out, she's abandoned her children and then all of a sudden she has a change of heart. She's driving out to Mississippi to get her kids. Well, the Defendant's not there, he's working. So why is this even relevant? The grandfather has the grandchildren, that's great. But why is it the Amber story? How does that have anything to do with their case? It doesn't. I mean, I think it's a sideshow. And Judge, I've let a lot go on and Your Honor understands why --
THE COURT: Yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: -- and just trying to let it go, but I think it's gone too far.
THE COURT: I want to get back to what's going on in South Carolina. I understand she went out there, the kids, I don't remember it being too big of an issue. She was told no.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. I think it's relevant for Mr. Jones to convey his version of that same event. Because the jury has Ms. Kyzer's version of it and I think that it's important for the jury to know the reasoning why Mr. Jones didn't just relinquish the children to Amber.
THE COURT: Oh, I think he's done that.
CASEY SECOR: Well, I would just -- I mean, I can ask him the question in front of Your Honor so that you --
THE COURT: He said, they don't need to be with their parents, I mean, he said that.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I think that's very clear that he wasn't on the same page with Amber.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Ever.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You don't have an issue there?
CASEY SECOR: No, sir. I would just -- I would just add that what his testimony would be about the actual interaction is that Ms. Kyzer arrived in Mississippi to pick up her four children in a pickup truck without any car seats. And that's what Mr. Jones would testify to.
THE COURT: I just don't, leave that alone. Go on to something else. We need to get done before July. If we rehash every single conversation that's not relevant to what he's testifying to, I am sure it happened. The State has got no way to challenge it.
CASEY SECOR: I understand, but I believe that it's relevant to explain some of Tim, Jr.'s later conduct in terms of not having Ms. Kyzer on the children's school paperwork, reasons for why he may have been concerned for Ms. Kyzer to be involved in the children's lives. I think this is a veniette that shows why.
THE COURT: No, moving on. Let's take a break.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
(Whereupon, a short break was taken.)
CASEY SECOR: May I, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.
BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, I wanted to ask you outside the presence of the jury when Ms. Kyzer, Amber, came to Mississippi to get the kids?
THE COURT: They're coming, so you better talk fast.
CASEY SECOR: Can you tell the Judge what happened?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: When we got the baby?
CASEY SECOR: No, no, when Amber came to pick up the kids.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She just come in a pickup truck to try to take the kids, a pickup truck.
CASEY SECOR: Was she with anybody?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, she was with that little boy --
CASEY SECOR: -- okay. Did they have any car seats with them?
CASEY SECOR: And did you -- what did you tell them about whether or not they could take the kids?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I just told her, come on, you know, you guys figure this out. You can't take the kids.
CASEY SECOR: And that was because --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Timmy had went to a lawyer and he had temporary custody and I was scared for them.
THE COURT: If you need to proffer more you can proffer more.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Thank you. (Whereupon, the jury came into open court at approximately 3:45 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Secor.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir. CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, I want to talk to you about the summer that you had the babies at your house with you and Julie in Mississippi, okay. I just want you to tell the jury, what was that period of time like for you and your family?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I mean, it was -- it was, you know, a great time. We had the kids with us. I taught how Gabriel -- I taught them all how to swim, actually, but I taught Gabriel. He was only six months. He was like a little tadpole. Pretty cute, it was fun.
CASEY SECOR: And the pool that you had at your house, did you put that in for the babies?
CASEY SECOR: And how -- over the course of that summer, where was Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Timmy was traveling back and forth from South Carolina to Mississippi every weekend.
CASEY SECOR: And was he still with Intel at that point.
CASEY SECOR: So when would you see him every week?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, he'd leave after work Friday, of course, and it's approximately an eight-hour drive. So he'd get there way late in the morning, get up real early, play with the kids for the day. You know, we had lunch, dinner, whatever, swim, just have some fun. He'd go to bed, get up, have breakfast and, you know, lunchtime, he'd head back to South Carolina.
CASEY SECOR: Were you concerned about him making that trip?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I actually -- after I think like a month and a half or so, I told him he's got to go every two weeks. Can you talk to your boss and maybe work something out where you can leave early Friday, you know, late Monday or something where you could make it a little longer. Every two weeks, it wouldn't be so bad.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Now, at the end of that summer, I think, the babies went back to live in South Carolina, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. Well, we was hoping he was going to come with us. We had already registered them for school, you know, the whole nine yards, but Timmy wanted them with him.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And they're his kids and I know he loved them. I was just scared for all of them because I knew he was still in love with Amber.
CASEY SECOR: Now, I want to skip forward about just a few months, from the end of the summer until Christmas 2012.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: Did Timmy and the babies come to Mississippi for that Christmas?
CASEY SECOR: And when they arrived, what was your immediate impression of Timmy at that point?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Something was real wrong with Tim. He was -- it wasn't Timmy. He was pissed off. I mean, he was just -- I mean, I could just see it, you know what I mean. He just -- he never told me what he was mad about, but, I mean, I even called my mother and stuff. Because we had set up Christmas dinner at my mom's house. Christmas Eve at my -- or Christmas Eve at my mom's and Christmas at my house. I called my mom because she knows him as well I do, of course, and said, you know, you got to be real careful tonight, you know, Timmy's -- something's wrong. I don't know, he's pissed off. And we go through it and he's just, all night, he's just irritated. And I know what it is, you know, it's the time of the holidays, you with your family, your wife, your loved ones and he ain't got it and it's hurting him. So he's trying to take it out on us.
CASEY SECOR: Did he leave Mississippi angry?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Very. Yeah. This is -- yeah, it was Christmas at about -- well, actually, day after Christmas, it was about 12:30, 1:00 in the morning. Again, we've been dealing with this a day or so now. He's picking at his sister, Jackie. And I tell him, you know, finally, I just say, she's like, Dad, will you tell Timmy to stop? I said, Tim, man, leave her alone already. Go to bed. And he went slap off. He just told me I never loved him. You know, how he couldn't stand me, didn't want to be around me. You know, stick this there, stick that there. You know, he's out of here. He took his kids and -- you know, I've done this with Timmy more than once. This is not something -- like I said, if I made him mad, gone for six months, a year. And I was just sort of upset because not only have I been helping him, you know, been doing everything I can, you know, all of us. And it was like it's just disrespectful. I don't raise my kids to be like that.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And so I said, you know what, you're going to apologize or I'm done. He never apologized.
CASEY SECOR: When he left, was that the last time you ever saw the babies?
CASEY SECOR: How long had you gone in the past when Timmy was mad at you before one of y'all finally reached out to the other?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Maybe a year at the most.
CASEY SECOR: Now, after Christmas 2012 when he leaves mad, when's the first time that you talk to him or communicate with him after that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Couple days before the babies died.
CASEY SECOR: And what were you talking to him about?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Coming down for a holiday weekend.
CASEY SECOR: You're talking about coming to Mississippi?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: I guess that was Labor Day?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Labor Day.
CASEY SECOR: And did you reach out and start that communication or did he?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did.
CASEY SECOR: Were you --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I called and apologized.
CASEY SECOR: You apologized to him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: (Witness nods.)
CASEY SECOR: Were you excited that he was coming?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, yeah, real excited.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah. Now, your mom and dad -- we call Larry dad, he's not your biological dad --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, he's my dad. Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Your mom and dad had seen Timmy and the babies before you started talking to Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, you know, with Timmy, it was all or nothing pretty much. He didn't talk -- like my mom told you the other day, if he wasn't talking to her, he was talking to me, so we always had communication one way or another, you know. I didn't necessarily talk to him -- I mean, I didn't talk to him, but I knew what was going on. You know, he sent back how it was so easy to raise the children. He don't understand how everybody has such a hard time. You know, it was just like a stab at me, you know. Of course, it was like he's full of it. I raised three kids.
CASEY SECOR: But did your mom and dad's visit with Timmy and the babies in Atlanta, did that play a role in your reacting out to Tim?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It was the reason.
CASEY SECOR: And why? What did they --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: My dad seen something wrong.
CASEY SECOR: And your dad tell you, I want you to talk to Timmy?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: How did you first find out about the babies and -- well, the babies being missing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: My mother, you know, because I think he took me off the emergency list and put my mom on it, of course, so they called my mom.
CASEY SECOR: At the school, you mean?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: So you found out from your mom?
CASEY SECOR: And what did you do when you found out from the school that the babies were missing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I started calling, of course, the police. I called Intel, you know, to see if Timmy had been there and they told me he hadn't been there in the last few days. And I just called the school, you know. I mean, I called everybody I could call. I even asked well, can't we put an Amber alert out? Can't do that because he has custody of the children. That's not considered am Amber alert, I guess.
CASEY SECOR: Did you eventually start talking with police officers and law enforcement in South Carolina?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I had them go to Amber's house -- actually, I think I had Mr. Kennedy go to his house, possibly to Amber's house as well, and police, whoever. I mean, I was doing anything.
CASEY SECOR: But this is still when you -- it's just that they're missing, right?
CASEY SECOR: Timmy hadn't been arrested.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Timmy had the children, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And was one of the people that you talked to during that time Investigator Creech from the Lexington County Sheriff's Department?
CASEY SECOR: All right. And when you were talking to him, did you tell him that you were worried that Timmy might have an undiagnosed mental health problem?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I mean, yeah, I was worried he got it from his momma. I seen him going through some crazy -- he was just off the charts, man.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And he scared the hell out of my parents, you know, and it scared the hell out of me.
CASEY SECOR: How did you find out that Timmy had been arrested in Mississippi?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I was called by the -- I believe Sheriff Crumpton.
CASEY SECOR: From Smith County, Mississippi?
CASEY SECOR: Somebody from that department?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes. I'm pretty sure it was Mr. Crumpton.
CASEY SECOR: And based on your conversation with him, at that point, did you have any idea that the babies were dead?
CASEY SECOR: What did they ask of you that first night, which I guess was the --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: They told me not to come, but I was already in the car, you know. I was literally in the car and I was heading that way and he said you can't. And I was like, well, I'm coming anyway. And he said, well, you're going to sit out there. You're not coming in.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And this is the night that Timmy was arrested?
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Did they ask you to come back the following day?
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Who went with you to Raleigh, Mississippi to meet with law enforcement?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: My wife.
CASEY SECOR: Julie?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Julie.
CASEY SECOR: When you get to Raleigh, Mississippi, who did you meet with?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: With Mr. Crumpton, the Sheriff, of course, the sheriff and a few other folks. I don't remember exactly who all was there.
CASEY SECOR: And what was your -- what was your impression of what they wanted you to do? What role --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, we all sit and talked, you know, because they still had nothing. Well, thought they had nothing. And we just discussed, you know, where would Timmy take the kids. I mean, you know, we discussed a little bit of everything and just tried to see what the hell was going on.
CASEY SECOR: And did you know that Timmy hadn't given them any information yet?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I know that I had raised all my children to say that -- and I didn't raise my kids to be bad, but I seen a lot of people get hurt from getting arrested. So I told them you never talk to cops. You asked two things, lawyer and my father.
CASEY SECOR: And so did you assume --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I assumed that's what he had said to them, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And did you think that you might be able to have an influence over him? You might be able to get him to talk?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, yeah, this is a little different circumstances. I didn't care about what he said. I was like, let me in the room, I'll get him to talk.
CASEY SECOR: Because you wanted to know where the babies were?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, yeah.
CASEY SECOR: Did they bring you into an interview with Timmy on the 7th of September, 2014?
CASEY SECOR: And tell the jury the Tim that you saw when you walked into that room in the Court House in Smith County.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I know Mr. Crumpton and them, you know, from him sweating and stuff, but he was -- I mean, he even asked me when we left do you know that boy, I was like, I don't know who the hell that was. I mean, he was off the charts. I mean, he was just ramping and raving, you know. And it was just -- it wasn't -- it wasn't -- it wasn't my son. I mean, I tried, we tried everything. We tried being nice to him. I tried making him mad, you know, just anything to try to tell us where the kids are because he's talking crazy stuff, like, dropped them off at Wal-Mart, couple seconds later, well, I kicked one out the car while it was moving, you know. I was like, what the hell is wrong with you, man?
CASEY SECOR: Was he saying things about Cynthia, his mother?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Cynthia's in my head and the only way you can get her out is shoot me. You know, just -- you know, I absolutely thought that was it, you know, he snapped. I didn't feel like it was a good -- good for the kids at that point.
CASEY SECOR: In terms of you thought they were probably dead?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, it was pretty high.
CASEY SECOR: And did anything -- did anything happen during that interview that made you -- that confirmed in your mind that the babies were dead?
CASEY SECOR: What's that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: When we were in there talking about -- the officers were telling me how they pulled him over, of course, and arrested him and they had found a little bit of blood in the car. That's how they said it, a little bit of blood in the car and they weren't sure if it was human or animal. And about three-quarters into this little interview thing we were trying to get him to talk, one guy, I don't know who exactly he was, one guy got mad and jumped up and yelled out, there's a substantial amount of blood in that vehicle, now where the hell are them kids. And I just knew beyond a shadow of a doubt because I was told a little. You know, substantial tells me they're dead.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. There's been some testimony from some law enforcement officers about that interview you were involved in on the 7th of September, 2014.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Wonderful bunch of fellows.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And they told the jury about an incident where Timmy put his hands up to your throat. And I want the jury to hear, what was your impression of how that --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I think their impression was a little different than mine because, at that point, like I said, I was trying to make him mad. You know, to see if I could piss him off and he's say something, he's slip up or something, you know, anything. And I get him, of course, he was mad and he ran up to me and said, you know, I could kill you. And I was like, you can't, I love you. It don't matter. You can't kill me. You know, it's okay, whatever it is. Of course, he just moved his hands toward my throat. He never even touched me. And then, he pulled away and continued crying and just going crazy.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: But I tried, man, I tried so hard.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah. I think the officers agree that you did try hard. And you came back the next day because they asked you to, correct?
CASEY SECOR: And I think that they didn't bring you actually into that interview, but they asked you to talk to Timmy at the end of it, is that right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I mean -- and I understand what Mr. Creech and the FBI fellow was saying, but it wasn't really explained to us quite that way. We were all sitting at, like, a big round table, you know, and trying to come up with ways to make this boy talk, you know. Or if he did do something, which I figured at this point, he has, you know, where the children are at and so on and so forth. So I guess you'd call it brainstorming, you know, know this, try that, we got the pictures, we try that. It was like if that don't work, you know, if he don't tell you nothing, then I can go in and put on some more, you know. But, obviously, they got what they wanted. But, I mean, I felt like they were involved in this, so it was a little -- I don't want to call it misleading, just, you know, sort of heartbreaking a little bit because I thought I was trying to help and they sort of made it like they didn't need me at all, which, they go to school for that, of course. I just wanted my babies.
CASEY SECOR: Were you trying to help them in any way that you possibly could?
CASEY SECOR: And do you have any animosity about those officers?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, no, no, not at all. Not at all.
CASEY SECOR: Are you grateful to them?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Very, very grateful to all of them.
CASEY SECOR: And when you talked to Timmy after he was interviewed on the 8th, that's when he was interviewed by Detective Creech and Special Agent Mackey, did you go -- or did they ask you to go in and have a conversation with Tim about going to find the babies remains?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, they did. And, of course, when I went in there because, you know, we had discussed it, whatever happens, they were going to let me spend a few minutes with him, you know, just to let him know I love him and hopefully things were going to be okay. And they don't know where the babies are. And I told him, you know, please just show them, man. I'll go with you, whatever I have to do.
CASEY SECOR: So you offered to go with him to find the babies remains?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I told Timmy I'd go with him if that's what it took.
CASEY SECOR: And did he want you to go with him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No. He said he didn't want me to, he said, but I'll tell them. I'll show them.
CASEY SECOR: Just a moment, Your Honor. May I approach, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may.
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, I'm just going to show you what's been marked for identification purposes Defense Exhibit 243, 252, 251, 253, and 259. Just tell me if you recognize those?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, I recognize them.
CASEY SECOR: And are they photographs, family photographs?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, I'd offer these exhibits into evidence and permission to publish them so Mr. Jones can describe them.
THE COURT: Those are -- we discussed at sidebar, that's a representative sample of some of the family events that were had in the Jones family involving Mr. Jones and young Mr. Jones.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Make sure Joy has the numbers that are now in.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And they were subject to an objection on relevance. (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit numbers 253, 251, 252, 243, and 259 were admitted into evidence.) (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit 260 and 261 were marked for identification only.)
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, if you would, tell the jury who's in that picture?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Merah, Eli and Nahtahn. It was Fourth of July, obviously.
CASEY SECOR: Is this at your house in Mississippi?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes -- oh, that's my parents' house.
CASEY SECOR: Your parents house, okay. That was 243.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Me and Timmy.
CASEY SECOR: And when do you think that was approximately? Is that when the babies lived with you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, this is when he was -- the babies were with us and he was traveling back and forth, I believe.
CASEY SECOR: This is 251.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That's the babies in the swimming pool.
CASEY SECOR: And who else is in that picture?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Up top is me and my two sons, to the left is Travis, to the right is Tyler. Down one row is Jackie holding my niece's baby -- my cousin's baby, sorry. That's Julie and Timmy and Tahn and, of course, Merah and Eli.
CASEY SECOR: Is that you think summer of 2012 when they lived with you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes. Yes.
CASEY SECOR: What about 253?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, this is Merah, Eli and Nahtahn outside at a cookout, obviously, of course, say grace.
CASEY SECOR: Is that something that they did on their own?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, they did.
CASEY SECOR: And the last one I want to show you is 259. Do you remember when that was taken?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, again, that's -- you can see his tags on his pants, matter of fact, from his job in -- that's when he was working at -- you know, traveling back and forth.
CASEY SECOR: Do you know who else is in that picture?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Merah.
CASEY SECOR: Is that Nahtahn?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And Nahtahn. He sort of blended in there a little bit. I didn't see him.
CASEY SECOR: May I have just a moment, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, the Timmy that you know now, that you've spoken to since his arrest, since the babies were killed, is this a different Tim than you knew before?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: This is the Tim that I was scared I was going to see one day. I mean, he's got some relatives and his mother, unfortunately, they're not right, you know. And I seen his mother go through it. I seen her brothers, Eddie, Chris, Arthur and Domingo killed his damn self. I mean, it's unfortunate. It's just bad DNA, I guess. It just -- I -- he's sick, man. That's all there is to it. That's all I can really -- I mean he's -- Cindy has -- and you've seen the pictures of her and it's just the look. I just don't know how to explain to you folks. I seen it when I was a young man and, hell, I seen it come again. You know, it's a nightmare.
CASEY SECOR: If you'd ever thought that the babies were in danger --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Come on. There ain't no way I would let anybody touch them babies, you know. And I -- I could have talked to him that day and I didn't because my son would never do such a thing.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: But the woman I knew as Cindy and then -- you know, yes. I mean, I don't know how to explain it, but I guess you have to sort of live it and know it and see it. I mean, that's all I can tell you folks. It's real sad.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Jones.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HUBBARD:
RICK HUBBARD: Mr. Jones, you and I have met a few times, haven't we?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: I think back September 29th of 2017, you and your wife, Julie, drove and sat in my office?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: The other prosecutor, Suzanne Mayes, Shawn Graham?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: Adam Creech was there?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, there was a bunch of folks, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: Again, this year, January 21st, you let us into your house?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Of course.
RICK HUBBARD: We sat down at your dining room table and we talked?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: And this past March, you came back down to South Carolina. We had some hearings and you and I got to talk again?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh. Yeah, you got me.
RICK HUBBARD: During all these discussions, we talked about who your son was growing up, what you gave to him growing up, what you did as a father growing up, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: Now, you had mentioned his mom, Cindy, having mental health issues?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: But you also said when he was growing up, he had no memory of her whatsoever, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, he obviously had a memory of her. I mean, I never said nothing bad about her. I didn't bring it up because she was a sick lady. And I always brought him around his family so he would know that I wasn't, you know, bashing his mother.
RICK HUBBARD: But he had no memories of all those bad things you've talked about --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I don't see how he could have. I mean, he was two and a half. I don't remember nothing from two and a half, do you?
RICK HUBBARD: That's what you told us?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Right.
RICK HUBBARD: All those things that Cindy was doing that you couldn't understand, those things that were just way off the chart --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Right.
RICK HUBBARD: -- cutting up clothes, hiding in the closet --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Scaring the hell out of me.
RICK HUBBARD: Picking all the leaves off the tree out in the front yard?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Man, that was -- yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: He had no memories of those things?
RICK HUBBARD: He was just too young?
RICK HUBBARD: That's a blessing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I thought.
RICK HUBBARD: You said the whole time he was growing up, because of what you saw in Cindy, you wanted to make sure you didn't see it in your boy?
RICK HUBBARD: You always looked for it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did.
RICK HUBBARD: Despite all the chaos that's been described about your family, you loved your son?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Still do, always will.
RICK HUBBARD: Absolutely?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: A hundred percent.
RICK HUBBARD: And as he grew up -- or as a little boy, you noticed he was well behaved?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: As a teenager, I thought so, yeah. As a man now, I probably would do differently if that's what you're asking me.
RICK HUBBARD: He wasn't a bad kid?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, no, no.
RICK HUBBARD: He worked hard at school?
RICK HUBBARD: And your son loved pleasing you with those good grades?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I mean, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: You were proud of him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Hell, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: And you let him know you were proud of him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did.
RICK HUBBARD: You weren't one of those fathers that would just kind of keep that to yourself. You always let him know you loved --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I don't think there's a parent who wouldn't.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, there's some out there.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I don't know none.
RICK HUBBARD: But you're not one of them?
RICK HUBBARD: So your son grew up not with a cold distant father, but you'd tell him I love you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Still do to this day.
RICK HUBBARD: Absolutely. And you always said I'm proud of you?
RICK HUBBARD: And I think you went so far as to say you kind of overindulged and spoiled him because of what he had missed with a mom, you tried to make up for it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You could say that, but I do that with all the kids. I give them anything not to cry.
RICK HUBBARD: You're the softie?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Pretty much.
RICK HUBBARD: And when he went through school, you said he was so bright, you mentioned going to --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Fermilab.
RICK HUBBARD: Is it Fermilab?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, it's called Fermilab in Batavia, Illinois.
RICK HUBBARD: What is that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It's a super conductor place where they got some kind of magnets or something they run around, plus atoms, stuff we don't see, I guess.
RICK HUBBARD: And he was in eighth grade?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, eighth grade, freshman, something, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: You had to be hand selected for that, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, very few kids in the State went there.
RICK HUBBARD: I think you described him as being like Sheldon off of Big Bang Theory?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, Sheldon, Einstein-type.
RICK HUBBARD: But he wasn't just a geeky kid, he actually tried to participate in school activities. Wrestling?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He tried wrestling. He did gymnastics.
RICK HUBBARD: Gymnastics.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He liked bowling. He hated football, baseball, you know, all the good stuff.
RICK HUBBARD: But when he had an event, you'd go?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Of course.
RICK HUBBARD: You weren't one of those parents that were a no-show so your son's looking out in the bleachers and dad's not there?
RICK HUBBARD: He could always see you?
RICK HUBBARD: You're always there?
RICK HUBBARD: Bottom line --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, don't get me wrong, I might have missed a few because of work or something --
RICK HUBBARD: Sure.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: -- but very, very, very rare.
RICK HUBBARD: But if you did, it wasn't because you didn't want to be there?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Had to be a hell of a reason, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: During that time, you weren't seeing Cindy in your son at all?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No. I mean, he had the family's resemblance. They all sort of had the same --
RICK HUBBARD: Sure.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: -- beautiful skin, you know, didn't have to deal with my stuff.
RICK HUBBARD: Would you say even as he's growing, certainly, when he's getting in his teens, he started pushing back, challenging you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He started doing what you supposed to do trying to turn into a man, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: Young men sometimes do that. They sharpen themselves on their dad?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I mean, that's what we're here for, right.
RICK HUBBARD: You didn't see anything unusual?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, my son was always on the edge. You can ask anybody that knows me, I always said he is so smart, he scares the hell out of me because it's -- you know, I did research on it, you know, Einsteins and stuff, these guys flip out. They're riding a rail. There's a fine line between brilliance and insanity.
RICK HUBBARD: You were seeing insanity --
RICK HUBBARD: -- you were seeing brilliance?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I was seeing no insanity, a lot of brilliance and then, of course, my son. You know, like -- I don't know --
RICK HUBBARD: You saw a teenager?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, he wasn't -- you know, he wasn't Detective Creech or, you know, or a lawyer. I mean, he was still a little geeky, you know, sort of like a video game freak. But he's my baby, I wasn't going to let nobody bother him, of course.
RICK HUBBARD: By the time he got in his mid-teens, 15, he got in that car wreck?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, that was with his family, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: And we've heard, there was some drinking involved?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: From what I understand now, I mean, I don't know if any of them had a tox test or anything like that, but the boy that was driving was Robert's brother, Rudy, it was his son that was driving and Robert's son, Roger, Jr., was in the passenger seat and Timmy was in the back seat. And they were doing something and I don't know -- I mean, there was a lot of stories told, you know. I never got the true truth, but it was supposed possibly drinking and marijuana, stuff like that, and they hit a tree.
RICK HUBBARD: You remember telling us he had the head injury, but the big injury appeared to be the broken leg?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. I mean, snapped his leg pretty good. And then he hit the back of the seat, obviously, with his head. He had a little Band-aid.
RICK HUBBARD: Now, we've heard that he spent a week in the hospital-
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, no.
RICK HUBBARD: -- but I think your memory was he spent a night?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, there wasn't no week in the hospital. Yeah, maybe a day or two for his leg, but no, no.
RICK HUBBARD: And it's not that you --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: They ran tests -- they ran tests, of course, you know, every type. He seemed okay.
RICK HUBBARD: Everything appeared okay at the time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Right.
RICK HUBBARD: Everything that followed, he was still just being an adolescent?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I mean, he was -- he was starting to hang around with some kids that I didn't care for much. And then, of course, you know where that leads. You understand. You don't want to tell them not to because you push them harder to it. That's what I always thought anyway. That's the way I felt, so I tried to treat him with kid gloves again.
RICK HUBBARD: When you were asked if you saw any change, you remember telling Dr. Frierson that you didn't see any personality or behavior changes after that wreck?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: As far as?
RICK HUBBARD: Dr. Frierson?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: As far as what?
RICK HUBBARD: Personality or behavior changes in your son after the wreck?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Other than turning into a young man. I mean, it's sort of hard for anyone to say because he's 14 and, you know, 14 and 19, man, a whole lot of shit changes, you know.
RICK HUBBARD: Sure. Sure. He had already started experimenting with marijuana, drugs and alcohol, experimenting?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: If he did, it was unbeknownst to me. Yeah, but, I mean--
RICK HUBBARD: I think you even made a statement one time that any talk about your son drinking heavily during high school and being drunk all the time, that's an exaggeration coming from your son?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Damn right. I just wanted to know where I was, like, oh, wait, whoa, whoa. I mean, it was actually him that said it. I was like, I don't remember that. If you were doing it, it wasn't here.
RICK HUBBARD: Yeah. So your son exaggerated that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I'm hoping so, you know.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, you didn't see it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I did not.
RICK HUBBARD: And listen, you've admitted that you had your issues, but you were watching to make sure he didn't have your issues, too?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Of course. I didn't want him to be like me. He's too smart.
RICK HUBBARD: You wanted good for him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I think we all do.
RICK HUBBARD: As he went through high school, you kind of dealt with these changes were going on?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Correct.
RICK HUBBARD: Just like every parent does?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Exactly.
RICK HUBBARD: But you never saw him being out of control in high school?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, sir. No. I mean, he got in a little trouble, like I said, a little marijuana or something once, but this is all what's leading to this Navy thing.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, as far as how he acted before he went in the Navy, your thought was that it was normal for the age he was and for the times he lived in?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. I mean, we'd have a father/son argument here and there, but nothing I didn't think out of the ordinary.
RICK HUBBARD: And you didn't think there's any -- you even described maybe he did less than a lot of the other kids his age?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: As far as?
RICK HUBBARD: Alcohol, drugs?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I know he would have to because he was -- he was a geeky kid, I mean.
RICK HUBBARD: He did good in school?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That, too. You don't see a whole lot of potheads going to Fermilab.
RICK HUBBARD: Even after the wreck, he was doing good in school?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, again, like I said, it all started, that five-year span there just got, you know.
RICK HUBBARD: Through all this time, through his upbringing, you always supported him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: You always told him you loved him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I do.
RICK HUBBARD: And as he became a man, you felt certain that you had instilled in him what every man should know, right from wrong?
RICK HUBBARD: No matter what you had gone through, you made your son know that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yep, all of them.
RICK HUBBARD: All your kids?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: You talk about he tried to go in the Navy. You knew that wasn't going to work right out of the gate?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He didn't have the physique. I mean, it just wasn't there. You know, the heart, you know, the mind do anything he wants, but there was just no way. I would have been absolutely amazed.
RICK HUBBARD: You never saw that athleticism or the physical side in your son --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Not to be a Navy Seal. I mean, he was a pretty gymnast. Of course, you know, my thoughts was please, you know, maybe he will. He's surprised me with other things. But I didn't -- I never told him, of course.
RICK HUBBARD: You supported him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Of course. I went with it.
RICK HUBBARD: But isn't it true you also had some questions, just like Carolyn had, about could he take orders from people without finally just saying, you know, I've had it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Sir, all my kids are like that. I tell them the straight truth. If you can't live by rules, how you going to live by laws.
RICK HUBBARD: So he knew that growing up?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: They all did, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: Then he gets in trouble and makes it into a boot camp. That was a good thing for him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, it was.
RICK HUBBARD: It started turning him around?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, but, also, that's when I started worrying because that was the same age as his mother sort of went off the edge. So yes, you know.
RICK HUBBARD: For you, with him, your concern was his religious persuasion? Very different from yours?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, that was after jail. I mean, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: But it happened during jail, didn't it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I guess in.
RICK HUBBARD: Isn't that where he got introduced to it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: In jail, yeah. But, you know, as a kid, he was -- my grandparents were, you know, really big in church and, you know, I went sometimes. Lord knows I should go more. But that -- that seemed like a cult. You know, like I said, it's something you can't live and it gets too much for any -- for one, the woman and her child. I mean, you can't live like that.
RICK HUBBARD: Sure. It was hard, but he chose it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, he chose it. And again, starting to think, my God, it's Cindy, oh, Lord.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, you recall talking to us. We never -- Cindy was never in the picture even then, right? Cindy never did that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: What?
RICK HUBBARD: Cindy was never Pentecostal and speaking in tongues?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, she was a devil worshiper, that's why she pulled all the leaves off the trees and she shaved all her hair off and buried and all that. She believed in Satanism, that's what her father, her real father, Domingo, I guess the original.
RICK HUBBARD: Okay. So now -- but Tim, he went to a church with people who believed just like him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I don't know. They --
RICK HUBBARD: For better --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: -- were pretty weird.
RICK HUBBARD: It wasn't just your son doing this. There was a community of people --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: There was about four or five of them. I mean, it wasn't a big church. There wasn't many of them. I mean, there was -- there wasn't this many people.
RICK HUBBARD: But you know there's churches all over --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, and that's why I told --
RICK HUBBARD: -- that accept this?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: -- him to get in a church that makes some sense.
RICK HUBBARD: Bottom line is, though, he started turning his life around?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, yeah and no. I mean, yeah. Yeah, he was doing the right thing, but it was too weird that he was going that hard.
RICK HUBBARD: Listen, that wasn't all of Tim at that part in his life. He started looking at college. He started going to school?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I mean, that's the first thing -- actually, when he came out, that's the first thing he wanted to do was go back to college.
RICK HUBBARD: You son was going to do what you did, pull himself out of what he came from and make himself better. And he was working on that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, he didn't really have to pull hisself out -- I mean, are you saying like because he got in trouble, pull himself out of it?
RICK HUBBARD: Uh-huh.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. Because I grew up in the ghettos of Chicago, which is a little different pulling yourself out of that.
RICK HUBBARD: He got himself in trouble and he's getting his life back together?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I forced him to do that because, once again, I took them to see him in jail. Call me when you get out because I don't believe in -- you know, if you do it, you do it. You earn it, you learn it.
RICK HUBBARD: But he started going to school trying to make a better life for himself, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, no, because before that, he decided he was going to get married to Amber.
RICK HUBBARD: He was in school already when he met her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He was doing a part time little thing in school, but he was working as well, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: Meets her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: He's young, she's young?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: They get married way too soon?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: That sounds familiar, doesn't it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, it does, don't it.
RICK HUBBARD: In fact, a lot of ways, he's a lot less like Cindy and a lot more like his dad?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Not really. I only got married because she was pregnant. I wouldn't have married her any other reason. He married her just to sleep with her. That's sort of nutty, isn't it?
RICK HUBBARD: But it ends up being the same thing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, I think he's crazy. You don't -- like I told him, if you bought a new car -- I mean, I hate to be mean and cruel, but wouldn't you test it? You've known this girl a couple days and you want to marry her because you want to make love to her or something. I mean, what's wrong with you? I mean, date her for a while, see if you like her. You know, of course, his religion thing was so hard, once again, you think oh, Lord, here we go.
RICK HUBBARD: He believed she was the one?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He did. And for a long time, I was happy for them. I mean, I would still be happy for them today.
RICK HUBBARD: He was doing what his momma was incapable of doing, he was changing his life, going to school, making something better of himself.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, in that sense, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: By the time his mother was committed, it wasn't that she just was bad with kids, it's almost like she didn't even know she was handling the child. It was that bad, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: A good example, Timmy got in touch with her once -- when we got in touch with her, he said, this is your son. And she says, which one? So yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: You never saw him that bad?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I never saw him that bad what you're trying to think I want to see, but did I see him in a whole different Timmy. Of course, his religious thing was off the charts weird. I thought he was damn crazy. Why would you get -- I mean, and then I thought Amber was even crazier for staying with him. But yeah, I mean, in one sense, he did great. He was doing the right thing and I understood it. It was great. But what's this thing to the right here, this religion chain, man, it's just -- I couldn't believe it. It was just -- it was still what I'm seeing now, it was coming. I mean, I knew it. I hated it, but it was coming. I mean, Timmy was losing his damn mind, I guess.
RICK HUBBARD: You remember talking to us and even then, you were telling us that the first time you saw Cindy in your son was after he was sitting in prison?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. I mean, I always see him in there, of course, but I'm just saying that person I was always terrified that was coming back, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: That was your fear?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And I see him now, too.
RICK HUBBARD: That was your fear?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It is. And it came true, didn't it?
RICK HUBBARD: You believed that Amber, they got married. Ends up, eventually, they move back to Mississippi?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: Goes to Itawamba Community College?
RICK HUBBARD: Making 4-0's?
RICK HUBBARD: Providing for her. They start having kids right away?
RICK HUBBARD: Transfers to Mississippi State?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: Graduates in the top one percent of his class, high honors, highest --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, man, you couldn't look for a prouder parent. There's no doubt about that.
RICK HUBBARD: And he did it --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: But I was just so worried about him, you know, I didn't believe this is real and he's still going. I figured in the beginning it was going to be a phase. And it didn't, it just continued and the religious thing still continues today.
RICK HUBBARD: But you keep focusing on that, but what's happening at the same time, he's raising a family, he's working and he's making better grades than kids who are spoon fed by their parents in school? Your son's doing something.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Imagine if he didn't have the dent.
RICK HUBBARD: What's that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Imagine if he didn't have the dent in his head how much more he could have been.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, it never showed up in his schoolwork, did it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, and it still don't, that I know of anyway, it's been a long time.
RICK HUBBARD: By the time he's in Mississippi State, he's got three kids. He's got Merah, he's got Elias and Nahtahn, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: He's got a wife that stays at home working -- her hands are full. No education for her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Her choice.
RICK HUBBARD: She -- I think you told us when he met her, you thought she might even be homeless at the time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She was homeless.
RICK HUBBARD: She really, really had nothing to fall back on, did she?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I never met not a family member from her, not a parent.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, that's right.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And they're alive, so I mean, I don't know what went on on that end, I don't know.
RICK HUBBARD: But she saw something in your son, too. Here's a bright, bright guy that sees something in her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You don't want to ask me that question.
RICK HUBBARD: No?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You don't want to ask me that question. She didn't -- she was just looking for somebody to take -- you know, to help her because she was in a bad spot. I don't think she looked at my son as love in the beginning, no, I do not.
RICK HUBBARD: Nine years of marriage?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I do not. Looking at the beginning when they met, I was there and it wasn't that.
RICK HUBBARD: So that was a case of Tim loved Amber and Amber didn't love him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that she was looking to hook onto anybody because she was homeless, literally.
RICK HUBBARD: Not that she finally had the attention of somebody who was brilliant, going places and it was a wow, he sees something in me nobody else does?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I think it was the other way, she sees something in him. You know, when you talk to him when he's like that, he's so -- I mean, he's -- he's brilliant. He don't always get what he wants, again, but he's brilliant.
RICK HUBBARD: And as they started life together, you begin to see things that you didn't like in the way he treated his wife, Amber?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That's right. It was this Bible thing once again. You can't make this woman walk around in a damn dress. I mean, come on, man. She's not allowed to cut her hair. She can't do this. She can't put on fingernail polish, no makeup or nothing. But she is like oh, it's okay, dad. I like it. When I'm trying to help her, she's flipping me under the bus. You know, it's just a revolving circle.
RICK HUBBARD: I think you used the word dominant?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Dominant.
RICK HUBBARD: That your son was dominant over her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I'm the dominant one. Timmy, he's not strong enough to be dominant.
RICK HUBBARD: You haven't described him as that before? You remember talking to --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I probably have. Hey, look, I was telling you anything. I wanted this shit over with, that's all I wanted.
RICK HUBBARD: You're not saying you told me something that wasn't true?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, I didn't tell you nothing that wasn't true. I mean, I've called him -- yeah, you can call him dominant.
RICK HUBBARD: You remember that you were so concerned -- telling us that you were so concerned, at one point, you approached Amber and asked her had Tim ever been violent towards her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I asked her that pretty every weekend, every other weekend. He was weird. And I worried about her.
RICK HUBBARD: He was the head of the house?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. He went to school. You know, he worked for me part time with my business. And I just seen things that I didn't think -- you know, I was worried that he was hitting her. And I begged her, Amber, if he's touching, if he's doing anything, please not only call the cops on him, but tell me and I'll kick his ass.
RICK HUBBARD: In fact, you even told us you confronted your son saying if you ever lay a hand on her, he's going to deal with you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I tell that to all of them.
RICK HUBBARD: But you told that to him specifically?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Probably more than once.
RICK HUBBARD: You agree with me there's a line a man shouldn't cross?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You damn right.
RICK HUBBARD: You raised your son to know that?
RICK HUBBARD: Now, before the separation, the divorce, Amber had not just a miscarriage, she actually went full term and had a stillborn child, isn't that true?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Like eight-month-old, eight months, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: She was never the same after that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, she was fine. I mean, you know, she cried a little bit, you know. Timmy's the one that got all freaky on it.
RICK HUBBARD: You notice Tim -- how it affected your son, Tim, and here's a lady who carried a dead child and delivered a dead child and you're saying it didn't affect her once she cried?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She didn't seem to be not as bad as Tim. She was hurt, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she wasn't hurt, but nothing like Tim. I mean, he was -- I mean, I'm waiting for sort of like the church thing, what's he going to do, start flipping around in the damn floor.
RICK HUBBARD: Isn't it true your son's response to that was get Amber pregnant again? She got pregnant like that, right, again?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I think it takes two to get pregnant, don't it.
RICK HUBBARD: It does, but who's head of that house?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: So how bad can she feel if she gets pregnant again.
RICK HUBBARD: Okay. I'll let you hold that thought. Amber's not here.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I love Amber. And I'm not here to hurt Amber at all. I just think that everybody should know everything, you know.
RICK HUBBARD: They start going through this divorce, you invited your son to just go ahead and move to Mississippi. Bring those kids here and you'll help take care of them?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You can't take care of that many kids. What human can?
RICK HUBBARD: You offer to help him and take care of those kids?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did.
RICK HUBBARD: You believed he was still obsessed with Amber?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No doubt about it.
RICK HUBBARD: It's kind of on the one hand, he loved her, but on the other hand, he hated her?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Nutty, isn't it?
RICK HUBBARD: Huh?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Sort of nutty, huh?
RICK HUBBARD: It's love and hate?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Fine line.
RICK HUBBARD: Couldn't let go of her, though?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He couldn't let go of her, but she did not want him.
RICK HUBBARD: And wasn't one of the big blows to him is that she rejected him? He didn't like rejection, did he?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Protected him?
RICK HUBBARD: Rejected.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, rejected. I wouldn't call it rejected. I'd call it hated.
RICK HUBBARD: Well, let's back up. Back when Carolyn came into your life --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Sure.
RICK HUBBARD: -- and you married her, Tim was jealous?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Very.
RICK HUBBARD: He wanted you?
RICK HUBBARD: He didn't want to share you with Carolyn?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Not many ten-year-old kids do when they've been with their father for ten years by their self -- I'm sorry, eight years, seven and a half.
RICK HUBBARD: You made a statement that he didn't want any woman near you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He wanted his father. You know, he didn't want nobody -- me and him -- his life was perfect, you know. I sort of ruined it by being with another woman is the way he -- I felt that he felt anyway.
RICK HUBBARD: And he took it as you choosing her over him. You rejected him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I guess you could say that. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's not the case, but you can say that, I guess, if you want.
RICK HUBBARD: He felt like his mother, birth mother, Cindy, even though she was mentally ill, she never left him, she had -- she had to go, she was sick?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He didn't know she was mentally ill until later in life.
RICK HUBBARD: He grew up thinking she rejected him, too?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, no, I just told him his mom was real sick. I never -- I mean, that's something he picked up on his own. I mean, I did not ever tell him his mom was mentally ill until he was older.
RICK HUBBARD: I'm not saying you instilled that in him.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh. Like I said, I never told him that. Now, if the other family -- his sisters -- or her sisters, you know, family on that side, if they said something to him, I didn't --
RICK HUBBARD: Bottom line is, he felt Amber had picked somebody else, somebody who -- some kid?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: And here he is, he's got a college degree?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: He's got a great job making great money. He's given her kids. Why not me?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: What do you mean?
RICK HUBBARD: He felt like she rejected all of that for this little kid next door?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: If you'd have seen him, he seemed like he was okay with it. I mean, I would have threw the guy out the trailer through the wall or something. I mean, he let him walk out.
RICK HUBBARD: What your son explained to you, he was never mad at that guy. He was --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He wasn't even mad at Amber.
RICK HUBBARD: -- mad at Amber?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Nope. No. He loved Amber.
RICK HUBBARD: You don't remember him ever saying --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He loved Amber.
RICK HUBBARD: You don't remember him every saying?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Saying what?
RICK HUBBARD: About blaming Amber? That it's her fault?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: For, the divorce?
RICK HUBBARD: Yeah, the whole thing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I mean, somebody's got to blame somebody, don't they? I mean, Timmy wasn't mad at Amber, man. He loved her. To me, that was the sick part. I was like, you love, but she's just throwing these kids in your lap. I mean, what kind of damn mother is she?
RICK HUBBARD: While Amber is seeing somebody, your son, Tim, starts seeing somebody, too, somebody who just turned 17?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I have no knowledge of that, but you know what, it wouldn't shock me because now, they're getting at each other. That's why the kids didn't belong with either one of them.
RICK HUBBARD: So about those kids, while he's going through this process of divorce and separated, they stayed, was it about six months with you? Or how many months?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, something like that. I didn't pay attention. It was too short.
RICK HUBBARD: For all you went through in life, all the good and the bad in your life, that six months was the best part of your life?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I wouldn't call it the best part of my life. It was the best part of the kids' life, I thought. They knew a normal damn family, not this crazy ass don't do nothing mother and this crazy ass son that's going to preach shit to them, yeah. I know they had fun. They had stable everything. We tried to make it perfect for them.
RICK HUBBARD: And you loved every second of it?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Of course. I thought I was a much better grandfather than I was a father, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: You learned a lot along the way?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir, a lot of bruises.
RICK HUBBARD: Your son knew if he ever had any trouble, if anything ever came up, he could always turn to his dad for help with his kids --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Every one of them know this.
RICK HUBBARD: That he could always turn to you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Any time.
RICK HUBBARD: Any time day or night?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: 365, 24/7.
RICK HUBBARD: You talked about Christmas of 2012. Do you remember telling us -- he's going through the separation. I think the divorce is finalized the next month or so?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Once again, I -- dates don't do nothing for me. Certain things, you really want to forget.
RICK HUBBARD: Remember saying to us that he appeared to be just pissed off at women?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He was pissed off at women at our house, yeah. I mean, there was no other women around. The only one he wasn't pissed off was with my mom. Well, you can't be pissed at my mom because she'd probably kick his butt.
RICK HUBBARD: He was picking on your wife, Julie?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, you don't really pick on Julie. Julie can handle herself to, but he went after our daughter, Jackie, yes.
RICK HUBBARD: Jackie.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh. Yeah, I told you that.
RICK HUBBARD: You stepped in, told him to knock it off -- this is your house?
RICK HUBBARD: And he did what he did when he was a little kid, packed up, went away?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: He did that even when he was little. If he got angry, he'd go off somewhere --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, he didn't do it when he was little. He did that when he became his own man. When he was living at my house, he didn't do that, no, I mean when he was a young boy.
RICK HUBBARD: You remember telling us when he was younger, if he got ticked off, he would just --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, if he got ticked off, he didn't talk to me, but he couldn't leave. He lived with me.
RICK HUBBARD: But he'd like go to his room, cut you off?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, I might send him to his room. No, no, no, he's my child. I'm going to make him follow the rules. I mean, if I said something like that, it must have been out of -- you know, misconduct.
RICK HUBBARD: Tim gathers his kids up Christmas Eve, drives them all the way back to South Carolina, about eight hours?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: Doesn't talk to you for how long?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Until three days before the kids were dead. I mean, roughly. I don't want to give an exact.
RICK HUBBARD: August 2014?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Somewhere in there. It was Labor Day weekend coming. I talked to my son after my father told me he seems -- you know, seems to be something wrong with him. I talked to him on the phone. He seemed fine. I apologize first, of course, because it -- and, obviously, it's a little game with us, you know, that he thinks he's always got to win. And he won again. And I apologize to him and, of course, he apologized back, said listen to this and, you know. He said, you want to talk to the babies? I said, no, I'll wait to see them the weekend and surprise the hell out of them. They'll freak out. And I never seen them again.
RICK HUBBARD: If you hadn't have called Tim, he wouldn't have called you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, he hadn't so far.
RICK HUBBARD: So all of 2013 and most of 2014?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh. My son was trying to prove to me that he was a better father than me. And God knows, I'm okay with that. I was good with that. That was his big thing, I'm going to prove to you I can do this.
RICK HUBBARD: He did it by not talking to his dad?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You know, my mom told me what was going on. And then when they seen something they thought was not right, they told me and it was time to intervene, and I did. You know, that's all we could do. I wasn't -- I was tired of being told you didn't love me. It just made me feel bad because I love my kid more than anything. I dropped out of school for this boy. I mean, I worked ten hours, 12 hours a day and cried for two damn weeks because I had to do it. I thought my God, my life is wrecked. For that kid. And I thought he disrespected me because he's getting divorce, something I learned him about, told him what was going to happen and he did it anyway. Now, look where we're at.
RICK HUBBARD: He didn't listen to you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, hell, no.
RICK HUBBARD: And when he went home and took his kids home, he didn't just bring the kids home and not talk to you, he took you off the list of being able to pick them up at school?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, I don't know that. I'm just saying -- you know, I used to be on the other one --
RICK HUBBARD: Like an emergency list?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I was on his emergency list at work, I think. Like I said, when he gets mad, he does stupid shit. If he had a insurance policy, I promise you -- I'll put it to you this way. If my son had an insurance policy from age 18 to the age now, it would probably have been changed about 38 different times between Roberta and Tim.
RICK HUBBARD: That's just the way it was with him? It was like walking on eggshells at times with him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Always.
RICK HUBBARD: Always?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, you just didn't know which Tim you were going to get that day.
RICK HUBBARD: And although you told him you loved him all the time, you remember saying that he never really responded in words back to you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You talking about when he was going through his divorce? He responded to no one.
RICK HUBBARD: No, just growing up?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, he would say he loved me. I mean, he wasn't like me, you know. I'm a father, I'm telling you I love you everyday. Kids are like, yeah, whatever. Shit like that. And then they're little, of course, they love you to death. They love the hell out of you. They turn into -- I told my wife, it's like puppy dogs. They're wonderful, they're cute. They turn into dogs. They get mean, they bite you.
RICK HUBBARD: You reach out --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I still love him.
RICK HUBBARD: You reach out to him. You make arrangements for him to bring the kids to come by Labor Day. Of course, that doesn't happen?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Pardon?
RICK HUBBARD: That doesn't happen. You get a call from, who is it, law enforcement or the school or who called you first or do you even remember?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, I remember. The principal called my mother. Then, of course, she called me. Then it wasn't -- oh, again, my mother is a part of my son's life just like a mother, so we're blowing up everybody trying to find him. I thought personally, and I was happy for it, I thought that's what it was, I thought he and Amber had gotten back together and he was afraid to say anything. I hoped so because these kids needed two stable parents. If something don't happen, me and my wife already discussed it, we're going to have to take these kids. But I knew if I tried to take Timmy's kids, hell, he might kill me because he loves them so damn much. It would be hard to take his children.
RICK HUBBARD: By the time law enforcement got in touch with you and you knew these kids were missing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: You knew Tim was missing?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
RICK HUBBARD: You remember telling us you believed at that point --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I believed he drove that damn truck off there and just killed them both -- all, I mean, himself as well.
RICK HUBBARD: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, I did not -- of course, I'm thinking the worse case scenario, right. Because my son just don't go missing. He don't miss work and his kids don't miss school. And all of a sudden, they're all here.
RICK HUBBARD: And you would agree with me --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And going through a terrible divorce, you know, and this girl -- I mean, man, that's hard for any person to deal with.
RICK HUBBARD: You'd agree with us, if he couldn't have them, he wasn't going to let anybody have them?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It's a possibility.
RICK HUBBARD: He sure wasn't going to let Amber have them?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I don't think it was so much Amber. I mean, he wanted Amber back, so I don't see -- that's what I said, it's all sort of screwy. He wanted her back and he was willing to do anything. Look, I don't blame her for not -- I don't blame Amber for not taking her back, you know. I thought they'd arrange something, you know, where you -- you change this and I'll change that. I mean, that's what usually folks do. I don't know -- I don't know their arrangement, but I do know that she was leading him on, you know, so that made it even worse. So it's like -- I did know that because he had told me. And I even told, son, you can take her back if that's what you want, whatever you want, but these kids need something. You know, you can't keep doing this.
RICK HUBBARD: September 7th, you're in Smith County, Mississippi. You meet Sheriff Crumpton, under Sheriff Marty Patterson and some other officers --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Wonderful guy.
RICK HUBBARD: They are wonderful, aren't they?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, they are.
RICK HUBBARD: They believe in what they do?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Thank God for people like that.
RICK HUBBARD: Lord knows, they wanted to help, didn't they?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. There was no doubt. Yeah, they wanted--
RICK HUBBARD: When you walked in there, they didn't have to twist your arm to say hey, can you help us find your babies?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, hell, no. What I need to do to help you? You know, something's not right.
RICK HUBBARD: I think you had even told us that if they didn't ask any questions, you were going to ask a bunch of questions?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: If I could have. I mean, if they let me, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: And they did?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I would have grabbed him and choked the shit out of him to get the answers, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: I think you had even mentioned that, that you might have been a lot rougher on your son --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Very possible.
RICK HUBBARD: -- if they weren't there?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. I mean, the way he was acting, yeah, some -- yeah, I want to know where the damn babies are now. You know, what human wouldn't.
RICK HUBBARD: They let you know some of the stuff they found in the car, but you understand law enforcement is not going to give you a full display of what they found?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, no, no, I disagree with that. Again, wonderful guys, but they damn sure misled me, yes, sir.
RICK HUBBARD: But you wouldn't have changed a bit of how you were asking questions of your son?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I'll never have that chance to know, but I don't think so, no.
RICK HUBBARD: You weren't concerned about your son, you were concerned about your babies?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, right, but, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if -- we'll never know because I didn't know.
RICK HUBBARD: Those guys were trying to do their best?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You damn right.
RICK HUBBARD: To find those kids?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: And I'd do anything to help them, yes, sir. I think they was a little deceitful, though. They could -- when you know decomp, you know, and enough blood and a piece of scalp in the damn vehicle, you know damn well someone's dead. They never told me that.
RICK HUBBARD: They didn't know who or how many?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That don't matter, they know something was. One of them was damn sure dead.
RICK HUBBARD: They needed to find those babies dead or alive?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That's fine, you know, but they don't need to be deceitful to the father. I mean, it worked. Whatever it is, it worked, you know, we're here. But it was -- again, no disrespect for those gentlemen, they're doing their job --
RICK HUBBARD: Well, let's move on. Let's move on. Your son looked wild that day?
RICK HUBBARD: He lied about what he did with the kids that day?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He lied about everything pretty much, didn't he.
RICK HUBBARD: Next day, when Adam Creech got there, they had the FBI there. You got to see your son and he -- I think you described him, my boy was back?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, that was my son.
RICK HUBBARD: That was your son?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. He was just a heartbroken, lost little boy.
RICK HUBBARD: The change of one day, he goes from wild animal to Tim, Jr.?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I really don't know how to answer that.
RICK HUBBARD: Let me ask you this --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Five babies are dead, somebody's got to be fucking crazy, I'm sorry.
RICK HUBBARD: Let me ask you this, Mr. Jones. You think it's possible that the biggest, too, is not just in his behavior and not telling you what happened to those kids is that he couldn't tell you what he did, he couldn't tell his dad what he did to his babies?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, I mean, I -- if I had been in there, he would have said something. I mean, he would have talked one way or the other, I think. Because the pictures and stuff, I mean -- I don't know, maybe not, maybe not.
RICK HUBBARD: Bottom line is 9/8/2014, your son looks normal and that's when he talks to Adam Creech and the FBI?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, if you want to call it normal, yeah. I mean, that's normal, I guess.
RICK HUBBARD: Throughout his life, you always looked to see if you saw signs of Cindy. You told us you never saw it up to that point ever?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: No, like I told you, in the 20's that's when I saw all that stuff that was a sign, but I let him go to jail and he came back out. And again, I didn't see signs of Cindy, I seen signs of who the hell is this religious freak.
RICK HUBBARD: Okay. And your son knew no matter what, he could always turn to you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: True.
RICK HUBBARD: He knew you still loved him?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Obviously, he didn't because that's why he left, remember? Because I didn't love him, I loved everybody, but him. So, I mean, he was having issues, dude, there's no way around it.
RICK HUBBARD: Tim loves himself?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, that's bullshit, sorry. There's no way Timmy -- Timmy don't love himself. Timmy don't even know himself.
RICK HUBBARD: Bottom line is this, these five babies could have come to you and they'd be fine?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, yeah.
RICK HUBBARD: Your son chose not to do that?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I don't know what he chose, I wasn't there. I wish I was and we wouldn't be here, would we?
RICK HUBBARD: Those babies didn't deserve what happened to them?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Nobody deserves what happened, buddy, nobody. Not him, not me, not my family. And that's what's the problem with everything, it's five years of this. You know, it's ripped my whole family apart, me, my son. I mean, there's not a person in my family or in my life that's not been affected by this. We would have done anything.
RICK HUBBARD: No one is affected more than those five little babies?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, no, there's six. I lose all six of my kids.
RICK HUBBARD: Mr. Jones, I appreciate you talking to me.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Uh-huh.
CASEY SECOR: May we approach?
THE COURT: Yes. (Whereupon, a bench conference was held in the presence of the jury but out of the hearing of the jury.)
THE COURT: All right, folks. We're going to stop there for the day. Put your stuff in the jury room. Be back here tomorrow same time. Don't talk about the case. Enjoy your evening. (Whereupon, the jury was excused from the courtroom for the day.)
THE COURT: All right. The jury is out. Mr. Secor, do you want to play the video proffer in here or do you want me to see it in chambers?
CASEY SECOR: Oh, I'm sorry, I was going to proffer the testimony from Mr. Jones about his life prior to Tim, Jr. If Your Honor wants to watch the video after court, that's fine with me.
THE COURT: All right. This is consistent with my ruling all along, with the witnesses who testify about the social history is, my directive was start with Tim, Jr. 1981 and come forward. This is pre-'81, background and social history?
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And you've done that with several witnesses.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: At my direction.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Thank you. Your Honor, if I may just quickly before I do that, I just wanted to identify the photographs that had been, were offered. There were five photographs at the Court's instruction that I chose from the stack and I just wanted to note for the record that the ones that were excluded are 236 through 242, 244 through 250, 254 through 258. Obviously, those numbers are referred to as Defense Exhibits. I would just ask that those be made Court's Exhibits for the purposes of my objection.
THE COURT: Joy, how do you regard those? Defense Exhibits for ID only?
COURT REPORTER: They're just marked for ID and I just leave them as ID and leave them with me.
THE COURT: They'll be Defense Exhibit for ID by those numbers.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit numbers 236 through 242, 244 through 250, 254 through 258 were marked for identification only.)
THE COURT: Not admitted. And my ruling, obviously, was the pictures represented photos from Tim, Sr.'s involvement with the son and the five grandchildren.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And that was the basis of my ruling on this duplicate evidence. It represented photos from that group, which you did, those are the ones I excluded.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Thank you. And, Your Honor, I would also just for the record for purposes of my objection to Tim, Sr. not being allowed to testify as to the circumstances of when Ms. Kyzer came to Mississippi to get the children. And I would just, for purposes of trying to further explain my argument of its relevance, is that in the divorce file that is in evidence, there are filings by Mr. Jones in that case requesting emergency hearings for custody of the children. And in one of those filings is a description of Ms. Kyzer going to Mississippi to try to get the children under those circumstances. And I just wanted to state that for purposes of my argument for relevance.
THE COURT: And that was just in your proffer before the last break?
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay.