8.Timothy Jones, Sr. — Proffer (Part 2)
128 linesCASEY SECOR: Thank you. PROFFER EXAMINATION
BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Jones, just want to talk to you a little bit about your life prior to Timmy's birth, okay? How old -- your mother is?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Roberta Thornsberry.
CASEY SECOR: How old was Roberta when you were born?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: From what I'm understanding, 12.
CASEY SECOR: Twelve, okay. And your father's name was?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Ted Montaine.
CASEY SECOR: And what was Ted Montaine's relationship to Roberta?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I mean, before?
CASEY SECOR: Yeah.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It was her dad.
CASEY SECOR: Step --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That would be her stepfather.
CASEY SECOR: Stepfather?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: Is that right? Okay. So that makes Ted Montaine --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Grandpa dad.
CASEY SECOR: Father and step-grandfather to you, is that right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Right.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us about Ted Montaine. What do you remember about Ted Montaine?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Very few things. You know, he used to beat my mother.
CASEY SECOR: How did he beat your mother?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, one time, he stuck her head through a glass door because she grabbed the keys.
CASEY SECOR: Did he ever tie her up?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, he tied her up. He hit her in the head with a hammer and throw water in her face to wake her up.
CASEY SECOR: After you were born, did Ted Montaine take you and your mother, Roberta, away from the rest of the family?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: He did.
CASEY SECOR: Where did he take you?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: We was pretty much landing everywhere, wherever he wasn't running from the law.
CASEY SECOR: Did he continue to abuse your mom throughout this period of time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You know, like I said, I remember just a few years of it, but it was not good. Yes, he beat my mom all the time.
CASEY SECOR: And how many years were you with him and your mom moving around the country?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I think I was like five or six when she finally got away from the guy.
CASEY SECOR: So it would have been from the time that you were born --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, but, I mean, I only remember maybe three and a half, four, just a couple -- two or three years.
CASEY SECOR: And what do you remember about your life during that period of time?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: It was just always, you know, walking on eggshells around him or you'd get hit.
CASEY SECOR: And you were -- your mom gets away from Ted when you think you're about five or six, is that right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. Like I said, he beat her steadily. Hell, that might be why I always worried about Amber and somebody touching her. I just don't agree with that.
CASEY SECOR: After your mom left Ted, did you and your mother have to try to hide from Ted?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah. I mean, I remember quite a few times, I would hear them -- I mean, you just heard the name and it was like everybody freaked out. I remember all of a sudden running and hiding. It was just crazy. My uncles were relatives, I mean, it was just crazy times back then. Yeah, my mom was always terrified, always till later on.
CASEY SECOR: She eventually met and married who?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Larry Thornsberry.
CASEY SECOR: And is he the guy that you sort of consider to be the father in your life?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And where were you living at that time when she marries Larry?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I want to say we were in Kentucky. I'm not exactly sure. It was either Kentucky or -- it had to be Kentucky, that's where Larry was at.
CASEY SECOR: And did you eventually move to Illinois with them?
CASEY SECOR: And what was the environment that you lived in in Illinois when you first --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, we lived on the south side of Chicago, what they call -- it was the ghettos, basically, but it's called Doubly Heaven.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Back then, anyway.
CASEY SECOR: And did your mom divorce Larry at some point?
CASEY SECOR: And who did she marry?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She married this Italian guy named Phillip.
CASEY SECOR: What was your life like when your mom was married to Phillip Caliendo?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, let's just put it this way, I took a can of red spray paint and painted his brand new Riviera.
CASEY SECOR: So you --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I didn't like him.
CASEY SECOR: You didn't like him.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Didn't want him, hated him.
CASEY SECOR: Did he mistreat your mother?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, God, no. He treated her like a queen.
CASEY SECOR: Did he mistreat you?
CASEY SECOR: But your mother was not satisfied with him, right?
CASEY SECOR: Do you have any idea why that was?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I really don't. I know my mom loved the hell out of Larry, if that's what you're asking.
CASEY SECOR: Well, she started having violent outbursts --
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, she was always violent with everybody.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I still to this day feel bad for my dad. Because my mom, she's rough.
CASEY SECOR: And when you came home -- when you were living with Phillip and your mother was married to Phillip, how would you find the house sometimes when you came home?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: If he pissed her off, I mean, she'd take out the whole house. Elk Grove, she did a real number. Foxwood Drive, she did a real number. When she'd get pissed, she tear off everything and anybody.
CASEY SECOR: What do you mean she did a good number, what did she do?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She destroyed the home inside. I mean, just busted everything, busted everything, she busted every window in the house out. This house had 18 windows.
CASEY SECOR: When she and Phillip gets divorced, who does she marry at that point?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: She married my dad again.
CASEY SECOR: That was Larry Thornsberry?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: And where did you all live at that point when she remarried Larry?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, we moved from the ghettos to rich, back to the ghettos.
CASEY SECOR: That's outside of Chicago?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, it was a little trailer park.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And tell us one of the major things that happened while you were living in that trailer park. Coming home from school one day on your bike, I think.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: In the trailer park?
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, where the plane wrecked?
CASEY SECOR: Yeah.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, that was a DC10. Well, I used to ride my motorcycle behind the trailer park in this little track all us boys made up. And, you know, a plane that took off from O'Hare and lost, lost an engine or something. But it was fully fueled for, to California. And it was like up and then straight back down and landed right and took out a few trailers. And I was actually on my way home from school. We got out early and one of the teachers, she brought us home. And about the time that she was dropping us off at the corner because she had to go the other way, which is maybe a mile away, this plane had crashed. And it was -- you know, unfortunately, I've lived a little bit of a rough life, you know. And I guess that's what so upsetting about the decomp because I've smelled dead bodies, burnt and not, so I know that smell. And anybody knows that smell, that smell knows damn well that something is dead.
CASEY SECOR: How old were you back then?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Then, I had to be 13, 14, freshman in high school. I had smelled a dead body younger in the apartment.
CASEY SECOR: That was in Chicago?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: That was actually in Interloo Apartments, (phonetic).
CASEY SECOR: You told me before your mom has had period of times when she had -- was very violent and was drinking way too much.
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: My mom was off the charts, you know, when she was younger. And it's sad to say, I grew up with my mother's friends, you know. Because, hell, she's 12 years older than me. So when she's 24, I'm 12, so on and so forth. So, I mean, I knew more than I needed -- I knew more than I should have known about her life. And I understood, you know, per se why, but at the same time, do something to help yourself.
CASEY SECOR: When you were growing up, did she threaten people in the home when you were there?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Oh, yeah. I mean, she would go on a tirade. You know, dad made her mad and he likes to make her mad. But I don't think he did so much back then.
CASEY SECOR: Do you remember her threatening people, you and people in the family?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Hell, yeah. She'd pull her gun and say I'll kill all you guys.
CASEY SECOR: She would point a gun at people?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Yeah, deadly, it has a hair trigger on that thing. She used to think we had ghosts on Foxwood Drive. That was the place she was going to shoot them.
CASEY SECOR: Did you save your mom one time when she tried to kill herself?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: I did, Elk Grove Village. My mother always argued and my Aunt Louise, my dad's sister, and Aunt Shirley. And they always fought all the time. I don't even know what the hell for. And my mom and dad -- we were staying with my Aunt Shirley and she just couldn't take. The next thing I know, my aunt's like, yeah, I think your mom took a bunch of pills. Where is she at? I don't know. So I had to go run out the door, just screaming her name, you know. And she finally walked out, I guess she went in there to die, I don't know. She would have if I wouldn't have been there, that's the truth. I know damn well, there was no way in that house she was going to get any better.
CASEY SECOR: There are a lot of people with what you perceive to be mental health problems?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: Well, my mom has them because -- I don't know where exactly, but, you know, all the shit that went on with her, I mean, I don't know how she wouldn't. And then Ted is just off the damn charts. There's no other way to say it other than he's just a sick son of a bitch.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Drugs and alcohol a problem with people in your family?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: You know, on my mom's side, but Ted is even worse because there was nothing. He didn't smoke or drink, nothing. He did this shit normally.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And there's a number of people I think in your family who have committed suicide, right?
TIMOTHY JONES, SR.: A few of them.
CASEY SECOR: May I have just a moment, Your Honor. Your Honor, I don't believe the Solicitor has any questions. I would just ask permission to make my argument on that testimony in the event that the Court's ruling is consistent with previous rulings.
THE COURT: My ruling is going to be the same as earlier in the trial, so if you want to make your argument, go ahead.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Thank you. Your Honor, I believe that kind of dovetail from the testimony that we proffered with Ms. Thornsberry, that her past and family history was extraordinarily traumatic and marked by abuse, severe physical, psychological and sexual abuse by her stepfather. And that the way that -- I was going to say the way that she was raised. I mean, she was only 12 when Mr. Jones was born, so she was still, in essence, a child and a traumatized child at that. And we believe that consistent with the testimony of our experts that that is relevant to the conditions under which Tim was raised by Tim, Sr. because of the historical abuse and, in some ways, depravity handed down from generation to generation in this family that it's manifested in different family members in mental illness, violent episodes, alcohol and drug abuse. And it would be our argument that this is directly relevant to Mr. Jones' mental health condition and claim of not guilty by reason of insanity because our experts have testified that the condition that he suffers with is a consequence of both genetics and environmental factors. Environmental factors being the social and family environment in which a person is raised. We would argue that our right to present this proffered evidence -- the proffered evidence should be admitted to the jury pursuant to the holding of Bobby Lee Holmes vs. South Carolina 547 U.S. 319, which was a unanimous decision by United States Supreme Court holding that exclusion of evidence under evidentiary rules is limited by the guarantee that criminal defendants be given a meaningful opportunity to present a complete defense which is protected by the compulsory process clause of the Sixth Amendment and the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
THE COURT: Y'all read that same case in the last few arguments. You don't need to read the whole thing.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I've heard the argument three times and still disagree with it. Tim, Jr.'s environment been testified to by all the family members to some extent, the expert has been given everything in considering and making their professional opinions. And I don't think that my limiting the testimony of the social history of Tim, Jr.'s life only and excluding anything prior has affected his right to a fair trial, it has been a fair and complete defense. I just don't believe it.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You got to draw the line somewhere. So I've drawn the line and I'm sticking with it.
CASEY SECOR: I would respectfully request you note our objection. Thank you.
BOYD YOUNG: One other thing, I've given the State and the Court a copy, the Defense anticipates calling Dr. Frierson as a witness tomorrow and we will be requesting a limiting instruction be given to the jury prior to his testimony.
RICK HUBBARD: We'll have something to say about it.
THE COURT: 8:45?
RICK HUBBARD: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Sounds good to me. We'll talk about it at 8:45. See you in the morning. (Whereupon, the trial will resume the next morning at 8:45 a.m.)