3.Charlie Crumpton — Proffer (Part 2)
157 linesCASEY SECOR: Sheriff, just a couple of questions if I may ask you before the jury comes back in. Mr. Hubbard asked you about the voluntariness surrounding Tim, Jr.'s statement on the 7th and you were there, correct?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I was there.
CASEY SECOR: At that time, did you know that he had invoked his Fifth Amendment rights in the Smith County jail numerous times and those invocations were ignored on the 6th?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I knew that when it came into play, I guess --
THE COURT: That's not, that's not a fair question. They were observed, they quit questioning him about it.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Right. That's what I was going to say. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Well, he --
THE COURT: That's really an unfair question when you saw the video.
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, he --
THE COURT: That's what I don't like when you all keep twisting the words. You all did it yesterday when I said you can ask about the waiver. You can ask about him refusing consent. And Mr. Young came up and said when he invoked. You all keep doing that, and you're really -- you're going across the line and y'all are keep opening the door.
CASEY SECOR: But, Your Honor --
THE COURT: The Defense team is.
CASEY SECOR: May I just say one thing? On that video one of the first things that's heard is Mr. Jones saying that he invokes his Fifth Amendment rights and the video is over 10 minutes long. So I think to say that his invocation was scrupulously honored is contradicted by the video.
THE COURT: You are always going back and representing the scrupulously honored. I like those words. Move on.
CASEY SECOR: So should I not ask that question?
THE COURT: Ask him, but don't say repeatedly. I just don't understand that.
CASEY SECOR: I'm not trying to be difficult. I apologize if it comes across that way.
THE COURT: Well, you're reading me right.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
CASEY SECOR: Sheriff, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you or anything.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I understand.
CASEY SECOR: But on the day of the 7th, September 7th, 2014, did you know that Mr. Jones had told Undersheriff Patterson he wanted to take the Fifth?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I do know they talked to him the night before and I do know he would not tell them anything. I was not there in that conversation and I have not watched that video that you're talking about.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
THE COURT: All right.
CASEY SECOR: May I have just a moment, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We're going to break because I am going to step off and get another cup of coffee.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Can I get up, sir?
THE COURT: You may. (Whereupon, the witness steps down from the witness stand.)
(Whereupon, a short break was taken.)
THE COURT: Are we ready to go?
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor, you want the witness back on?
THE COURT: Yes.
CASEY SECOR: Sheriff, please step up.
THE COURT: Step back up. (Whereupon, the witness returns to the witness stand.)
THE COURT: One last thing on that last issue. Ten minutes of questioning on the 6th, which has been suppressed because Mr. Jones, Jr. invoked his rights, this Court does not find that to be anything close to water boarding for any extensive period of time. He was not tortured, his will was not overborn. Ten minutes of questioning of the five kids. Ten minutes seems to be a very reasonable follow-up of time. So I don't consider that torture, threats or otherwise overcoming his will. I don't see it. All right. Bring in the jury.
CASEY SECOR: I respectfully object to the Court's ruling.
THE COURT: Okay. (Whereupon, the jury came into open court at approximately 9:55 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Thank you all for that. We took a break also. Continue on, Mr. Secor.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Secor:
CASEY SECOR: Sheriff, when you met with Tim, Jr. on the night of the 7th, is that correct?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: I believe you told Solicitor Hubbard that he was sort of all over the place in terms of what he was saying and the way that he was acting. Is that right?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: He was acting, like I say, from one extreme to the other. Very high up, very down low, very emotional, couldn't be still, a lot of anger. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And you heard him say things that didn't make any sense as well, didn't you?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yeah, I guess you could put it that way. I guess that would be a way to put it.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Things about his mother putting voices into his head?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We didn't know who Cindy was at that time, but the name Cindy came up, yes --
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: -- and I didn't know who that was, but later on found out to be his mother. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And I believe you said that he appeared, based on your experience, which is obviously significant, he appeared to be somebody who was under the influence of something, right?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That was certainly my opinion.
CASEY SECOR: But just to be clear, at that point you knew that he'd been in your facility for almost 24 hours -- 20 hours?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: At that time he'd been in there 20 to 22 hours. Like I say, I'm not a note keeper, but that's --
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: -- that's close. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And he'd been in a cell where he was, somebody put eyes on him every 15 minutes?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: They certainly did. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And certainly he's not doing any drugs in your facility?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And I believe you were here the other day when Undersheriff Patterson was testifying. You saw the records from your department that indicated the people who were checking him into the jail --
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Uh-huh.
CASEY SECOR: -- initially indicated that he appeared to be under the influence of something, correct?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: The best I remember. Like I say, I've not seen those. You all put them out here those -- as far as those records. I don't hardly ever look at those records.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. But they are from your department?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: They were from my department. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And people -- they're filled out from people who --
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: They are.
CASEY SECOR: -- are from your department who are trained to do that?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That is correct.
CASEY SECOR: Now, when you were talking to Mr. Hubbard you brought up the issue of you inadvertently mistakenly mispronouncing the Nahtahn's name.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did. I sure did.
CASEY SECOR: And that sounded like that caused a very visceral reaction in Tim, Jr., is that correct?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: It was, it was quite a reaction. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And that --
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Strong reaction.
CASEY SECOR: I didn't mean to interrupt you.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That's all right. I just said a strong reaction. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And it seems like that left an impression on you.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: It did. It did.
CASEY SECOR: Because at that point you believed that he was responsible for Nahtahn's death?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I thought at that time if any of them were dead it would have been Nahtahn. That was just from -- from years of doing this and trying to listen real closely, I thought if we had any child dead at that time it probably would have been Nahtahn.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And it struck you as odd because it seemed like Tim was jumping to his son's defense when you mispronounced his name?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That struck me as real odd. Sure did.
CASEY SECOR: And you've been sheriff for a long time and you've conducted all sorts of interviews during the course of your career there at Smith County, correct?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We have. Lots of them.
CASEY SECOR: And I think you said to Mr. Hubbard you'd never seen anybody that acted the way that Tim did?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I have never seen that. No, sir.
CASEY SECOR: I wanted to, if I could, to tell the jury about what you, as a sheriff, did in Smith County when you first learned that spice was in your county.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We had never dealt a whole lot with spice. We, you know, we started seeing some of it but I had never seen anyone actually strung out, for lack of a better word, on spice. It had been -- we'd been seeing it on the national news a lot. At that time it was some, several deaths from it actually in, I believe it was, Nebraska and Kansas, and also Arizona, and Mississippi was starting to feel it. Actually the northern part of the County, the state actually started feeling it first. I believe Lafayette County, which is where Oxford, Mississippi is, was the first county to wage war against it, if you would, with their, with their local laws. And I went to our Board of Supervisors and we were second of -- if I remember, second in the State to wage war against on a level where it could never be sold.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: So we saw something bad coming. We sure did.
CASEY SECOR: And if I recall correctly from our conversations, you didn't -- you didn't necessarily wait until the law was in place to make it illegal. You took action as a public safety officer in that County to get rid of it even before that?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That's what we were trying. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And that's because you, as Sheriff of that County, weren't going to wait around to find out what happened if somebody smoked that?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No. We'd seen the devastation of methamphetamine and we didn't want to deal with that again.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And after Tim, Jr. being arrested and gone back -- been transported back to South Carolina, at some point you had a conversation with a drug analyst involved in this case. Is that correct?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did. I did.
CASEY SECOR: And that was somebody that had analyzed some of the spice that had been recovered from Tim, Jr.'s vehicle?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. It was in our custody under my name at that time. And so, I did release some for, it was a, and forgive me. I can't remember his name. It was, he was an MD with DEA out of Washington.
CASEY SECOR: Washington, D.C.?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Uh-huh.
CASEY SECOR: And it was your understanding, based on that conversation, that he had been involved in the testing of the spice or he had seen the result?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Apparently so. Like I say, he was, this was something new and he realized that, they were also trying to get a battle started against it.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And when you were talking to him about the results of the spice in this case, the spice that was taken from Tim's vehicle --
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Uh-huh.
CASEY SECOR: -- tell the jury what you heard in his voice.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I heard him -- I believe the quote was when it came, when the results came back, and I'm certainly not an analyst by any means at all, but I do read on it and I do listen. Apparently there are several different versions of this spice, that something becomes illegal today and tomorrow the chemist, they just change it. Get the same effect with a different drug is the way I, a poor man's way of putting it to you. But the quote that man told me was, "Sir, we got a -- looks like we got a monster on our hands," I believe was the quote he told me from talking to me. He called me on, I think, two occasions.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen in a number of our conversations that you felt like you heard fear in his voice.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did. I really did. He was -- and again, I don't know that man. Never laid eyes on him. Talked to him twice. But I could tell he was very concerned of what I was telling him we had seen as a result of it and what they were seeing nationwide. It was a --
CASEY SECOR: And that was the fear that, of him knowing that something of this potency was out in the public. Is that right?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That's correct.
CASEY SECOR: I just want to talk to you a little bit about Tim, Sr. Tim's, obviously you know Tim. Jr.'s dad in this --
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Certainly. Certainly.
CASEY SECOR: You weren't involved in them coming to Raleigh when they, on the first day they came to --
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: -- what do you mean involved in them coming up?
CASEY SECOR: I guess, it wasn't you that asked them to come?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, but we discussed it.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We discussed it. But I actually believe he again, it's been a long time and a lot of stuff has happened between now and then. I believe South Carolina talked to him on maybe that Saturday night, I'm thinking, and then Agent Johnson had talked to them sometime Sunday --
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: -- we discussed that. And somebody made contact with the father and I can't tell you who. It was not me. But someone made contact with him, which I thought was a great idea. And, yes sir, so someone in law enforcement had contact with his father.
CASEY SECOR: Yes. And you met with them on the afternoon of the 7th before you went and met with Tim, Jr., right?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Right. I met the father before I met the son. I sure did.
CASEY SECOR: And I assume that you were aware of the anguish that Tim, Sr. and Julie were in at that point not knowing where their grandbabies were?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Certainly. I felt their -- I felt their emotions. I sure did.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And they were, is it fair to say they were impassioned about wanting to help you?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: They were. There was -- there was no coercing, no nothing. They were just genuinely concerned for their grandchildren.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And for their son, too, correct?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Certainly for their son. He was not only a good grandfather, apparently he was a good father.
CASEY SECOR: And it wasn't, it wasn't an easy process when you went into or when Tim, Jr. was brought into the room. There was a lot of emotion between the two of them?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: It was. It was, really was. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And they went back and forth for a while. That sometimes they would be calm, and then sometimes they would be seemingly angry at one another?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yeah, the father, he remained, he remained calm. He did. He impressed me. The anguish was coming mostly from the son, not the father.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. And there was significant headway made in the investigation of this case in that interview on the, on the 7th. Would you agree with that?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: A lot of headway was made.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And you would give Tim, Sr. and Julie significant credit for that headway that was made?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I would. I would. Sure would.
CASEY SECOR: And you saw, you saw Tim, Sr. and Julie demonstrate tremendous strength for their grandbabies?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did.
CASEY SECOR: And that was when they maybe still had some hope that they were still alive they demonstrated strength -- or you saw them demonstrate strength through that process?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did. We all had that hope.
CASEY SECOR: And even after information came out that indicated that your hopes were probably tragically going to be dashed, they still showed strength for their grandbabies?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: They did.
CASEY SECOR: Because they wanted them to be brought home --
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Regardless.
CASEY SECOR: -- regardless? Yes, sir. And you saw them be strong for Tim, Jr., too?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did.
CASEY SECOR: And you feel for them, don't you?
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did feel for them. Still do feel for them.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: May I have just one moment? Sheriff, thank you for all your work in this case.
CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Thank you, sir.