11.David Mackey — Direct/Cross/Redirect (Part 2)

DAVID MACKEY: David Mackey, M-A-C-K-E-Y.

DAVID MACKEY: Currently I work for the Columbia Field Office for the FBI.

DAVID MACKEY: Approximately 17 years.

DAVID MACKEY: Currently I am the supervisor of our domestic terrorism squad and our joint terrorism task force.

DAVID MACKEY: I do.

DAVID MACKEY: I will be assigned to the U.S. Embassy in London as a Deputy Legal Attaché, Deputy FBI Agent.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, it is.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, I was contacted on Sunday, September 7th.

DAVID MACKEY: At that time what we knew is Timothy Jones had violated a Court order, he had not returned his five children to their mother. He was caught several states away in Mississippi where he was in custody.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Correct.

DAVID MACKEY: At this point there was concern about potential kidnapping so we were contacted. And then in cases we often, if we can provide assistance to the local authorities or state authorities we also do that as well.

DAVID MACKEY: No.

DAVID MACKEY: Correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: No.

DAVID MACKEY: That Sunday evening I went to the Lexington County Sheriffs Office. There I met with Detective Creech and a number of other officials from Lexington County as well as SLED.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: We knew he was in custody, we knew the following morning we were going to drive out to Mississippi and attempt to interview Timothy Jones.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, he is.

DAVID MACKEY: Also Dave Lawrence from SLED. He is now retired but at that time he was with SLED.

DAVID MACKEY: We did.

DAVID MACKEY: At that time Dave Lawrence is a polygrapher. He was not going to be part of the interview itself.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, at this time we did not know the status of the children, if a crime occurred, where it had occurred. We did not have jurisdiction at that time.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: And Detective Creech, that's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: I did.

DAVID MACKEY: I did.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: We did. We were not going to bring him into the interview.

DAVID MACKEY: Essentially my plan that day was to convincingly accuse Timothy Jones of what he had done to attempt to locate these children. So as part of that I did not plan to bring his father into the interview.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, I did. I had a advise of rights form from Lexington County that I had obtained from Detective Creech.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. This is the advise of rights form that we provided to Timothy Jones that day.

DAVID MACKEY: Sure. When Mr. Jones came in we had greeted him, we shook his hand, he had sat down. At that point I began reading the advise of rights form to him. I would read each right and at the conclusion of that I would ask Mr. Jones if he understood that right.

DAVID MACKEY: Sure. Before we ask you any questions you must understand your rights. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. I ask him if he understood that, he indicated he did. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advise before we ask you any questions and have him or her present with you during questioning. Again, he indicated he understood. If you have no money for a lawyer's fees that the Court will appoint one to represent you without cost to you, if you wish. He indicated he understood. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present you will still have the right to stop answering questions at any time. You also have the right to stop answering questions at any time until you talk with a lawyer. Again, he indicated he understood that. I then went down to the waiver of rights portion of the document. I told him these were his rights, this would be him waiving the rights and willing to speak with us. This says, I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. I do not want a lawyer at this time. I understand and know what I am doing, no promises or threats have been made to me and no pressures or coercions of any kind have been used against me. After I did that, we had asked Mr. Jones, you understand all of this. He says, yes. He does not want to sign at that time but he indicates he will talk to us. And he says, I know I will be self-incriminating myself. And at that point we continue forward, we continue to ask some background questions of him.

DAVID MACKEY: He did, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: I do.

DAVID MACKEY: That would be my signature.

DAVID MACKEY: Detective Adam Creech.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: The Defendant, Timothy Jones.

DAVID MACKEY: We were at the Smith County Sheriffs Office, we were on the second floor in a room previously described by the MBI Investigator that you had heard from previously.

DAVID MACKEY: When he first sat down we went over the advise of rights. At that point I began going over some of his background information. I began asking him about his employment history, where he worked, what he did. He told me he worked at Intel and told us this and he stated he made approxiamtely $80.000.00 dollars a year. He was a computer engineer, educated, had thoughts of going on to medical school. So we talked about these issues before moving into his health. We talked both about his general health and his mental health. He said he was not under the influence of any alcohol or drugs at that time. He stated he could completely comprehend what was going on. He understood what was happening. As far as his general health, he talked about having an ulcer and some Crohn's disease. As far as his mental health he mentioned his mother and he thought that he might suffer from the same mental illness that she may have.

DAVID MACKEY: No. He was certainly very, his answers were very logical at that time and completely made sense to us.

DAVID MACKEY: I did not.

DAVID MACKEY: I did not see those signs.

DAVID MACKEY: No.

DAVID MACKEY: So ultimately I began asking him about his children and immediately his demeanor changes and he starts talking about his two boys, Nahtahn and Elias, that both of these boys had made statements. Nahtahn, according to Timothy Jones, made statements that he wanted to kill his father. And Timothy was talking about the children basically colluding against him and they had it out for him. So he was acting as if he was afraid of his children.

DAVID MACKEY: I, upon hearing that, I let him know that I did not believe that and I began confronting him with some of the information that I had with me that day. What I first do is I put down the Walmart receipt that you have seen. And I asked him to start reading off for me what is on that receipt. And he is reading off about the saws. And I asked him, what is this for. And he tells me it is to cut tree limbs. He is reading off the muriatic acid, the goggles, the five gallon bucket. He is telling us this is to etch PVC. Again, I am telling him, I don't believe this. I go to his handwritten notes. He says these are his notes, this is his writing but he claims he does not recall writing this, he doesn't know what it is about. But he reads off for us exactly what he wrote down about sanding down the bones, dissolving and discarding the bodies. He reads this, he denies knowing what any of that is about. I go into the biological evidence.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: It is.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes and he read that off to us.

DAVID MACKEY: He did.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. And he reads this off matter of factly to us, denies knowing what it is about but he admits he did write it.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. He reads it down to us, he points to areas and he reads, some of the handwriting he didn't know what it is. But the parts that we just went through he was able to read off to us. I then confront with the biological evidence and talk about the blood in the vehicle. And he tells us that blood is from an animal and Detective Creech lets him know that that blood has tested positive for human blood. Timothy says it came from a cut, that he had cut himself, it is from a cut. And we let him know there was a large amount of blood in that vehicle, that what he is telling does not make sense. I then began laying down photographs of his children.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. Individual photographs of each child. And I began laying those down in front of him. And he had a big reaction to seeing these photos. He began crying heavily and he began saying, keep them away from me, get them away. He had previously maintained that he had dropped them off at Walmart. So he had this reaction to the photographs of the children.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, I did not know that at the time but yes, that is correct.

DAVID MACKEY: At that time I did not know what had happened. We later find out. But I suspected, he said he had dropped those children off and now he was acting if he was afraid when he saw the photographs of his own children.

DAVID MACKEY: I thought it was consistent with his behavior before. He was lying, everything put in front of him and I did not believe his reaction to these photographs.

DAVID MACKEY: I go back to the Walmart receipt and I go back to what he had purchased and I let him know that this seems consistent, exactly with what his notes say that this, this is consistent with dismembering and discarding bodies. And I asked him to read off the notes to us again. And at that point he says, let's cut to the chase.

DAVID MACKEY: He says that.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, just previously he was, when he saw the photographs he was very emotional.

DAVID MACKEY: It appeared the weight was lifted off of his shoulders and he began logically walking us through what he had done to his children.

DAVID MACKEY: He does. He says there is large parts he would not remember. When I went into the interview, what I had known was the last time Timothy was seen with his children was that Thursday, August 28th. So we went back to that day. And he walked through with us how he had essentially picked up the children, how they got to the house that day. And that evening he began, he began having a confrontation with his son, Nahtahn. Four outlets in the house had been blown. And Timothy was confronting his son about those outlets. And he wanted his son to tell him what he had done.

DAVID MACKEY: He said to get his son to talk about this he began PT'g his ass.

DAVID MACKEY: Those were his words. We asked him to clarify, what does that mean. He said he had his son do pushups, squats. I asked him, did you use your hands at all. And he said that he did hit his child and he was spanking him. He denied using any objects or anything of that sort to strike him but he did this for hours. And talked about his son being defiant. Again, his words, and his son would not come off of it.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He said after doing this for hours he sent his son to bed. He claimed he knew that he had pushed his son too far. And when he checked on his child his son was no longer breathing.

DAVID MACKEY: He said that he was deceased. He told us previously, once he said he wouldn't come off of it. He told us we were not going to find them. And he said that they were deceased.

DAVID MACKEY: All the kids were deceased, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct. That's correct, in the living room.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: I did. To PT a six-year-old to the point where they die is something--

DAVID MACKEY: I asked him if there was anything further he did to his son. He denied this, he repeatedly said it was not premeditated, that this was an accident with Nahtahn. He claimed that it was the PT'g that did this. I asked him specifically had he used a pillow to place over his son's head, anything of that nature and he denied this. He denied using any objects to strike his child with. I asked him, why would you, after being so angry at your son, go in to check on him. And he told me he knew he had pushed his son too far. That is why he wanted to check in on him.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: After that, I apologize, these are his words. He said, the voices in his head said fuck, no one is going to believe you. So he was going to have to kill the remainder of his children. He talks about going to the oldest son first, Elias.

DAVID MACKEY: He does.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He first goes to his son, Elias.

DAVID MACKEY: Merah Gracie.

DAVID MACKEY: The two oldest and then he goes to the youngest, Gabriel and Abigail or Elaine.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. The children were afraid, they knew something bad had happened. And he mentioned both of them struggled. He first went to Elias and I asked him, how did you kill your son. He used his hand to strangle his child.

DAVID MACKEY: According to Timothy Jones Elias says, Daddy, can I come with.

DAVID MACKEY: Not to my knowledge. Again, this is what Mr. Jones had told us.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He does. He chokes his son to death and his son struggles as he is being strangled.

DAVID MACKEY: Next he goes to his daughter, Merah Gracie. And he kills her in the same manner.

DAVID MACKEY: According to Mr. Jones, Merah Gracie says, before he strangles her, Daddy, I love you.

DAVID MACKEY: He strangles her in the same way. And she struggles as well.

DAVID MACKEY: Basically stated that, wouldn't you if you were strangled. So he appeared to think that was a normal reaction from his children.

DAVID MACKEY: Next he goes to his son, Gabriel.

DAVID MACKEY: The two-year-old. And he says, basically his hands were too big to strangle the smaller children. Initially he told us that is what he did and then he corrected himself to say he had used a belt he placed around their neck and then he had showed us how he had pulled the belt taunt to kill his son.

DAVID MACKEY: He did, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: And then he goes to her and he kills her in the same manner with that belt.

DAVID MACKEY: I do ask him, I confront him after we hear this story, I ask him if this is about being afraid of your son or is this about your son not coming off of it. And he states, this was about his son not coming off of it. His son would not tell him, wouldn't tell the truth about those outlets. And he let's us know that had Nahtahn come off of this none of this would have happened, all of the children would still be alive.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: He did, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He was six years old.

DAVID MACKEY: He states at that point he wraps their bodies up in their bedsheets and he takes them out to his vehicle, the Cadillac Escalade and he begins stacking up the bodies behind, behind the driver passenger seat, in that back floorboard, he starts stacking the bodies up there. I had asked him about a piece of tissue or scalp they found in the car. He states that he was not careful with these children, that they were already dead. So he takes their bodies and he stacks them up. He said at that point they were already dead. So he does not know if that could have happened when he had placed the children in the car or if it was possibly from the decay. So he was not sure where that came from but he denied that he had done anything to cause that injury.

DAVID MACKEY: Correct.

DAVID MACKEY: He is, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He, we asked him if he was under the influence at that time and, of drugs. And he said, no, but afterwards he began to use Spice to calm the voices in his head.

DAVID MACKEY: After, after the children were dead. And he began formulating plans at that point of what to do. And he made plans to dispose of these children's bodies.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He remembered some, some of the note. He still stated to us that he didn't know what it meant but he said these were some of the ideas that he had come up with, that he had devised in order to discard the children's bodies. He said ultimately he could not bring himself to go through with it.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct. His plans were ultimately to dismember the bodies and to discard them.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. Now with both of those items, he did state it was because of getting rid of the bodies. But he also stated with the garbage bags that he also had other trash in the car that he was going to get rid of. But he did state he bought those trash bags to place the children in.

DAVID MACKEY: My understanding is he laid them, their bodies across, behind the driver's seat and the passenger seat so they are laying on that floorboard there, they were all stacked up.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. We knew there was clearly a strong odor and he did state he had air-fresheners but he ultimately said, you get used to it. So he had gotten used to the smell.

DAVID MACKEY: That's right.

DAVID MACKEY: He was.

DAVID MACKEY: I did.

DAVID MACKEY: Again, these are his words. He did state that part of him felt bad, that no dad should ever do this to their children. Part of him said, fuck it, they are already dead.

DAVID MACKEY: It was.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: No. While we were traveling to the Smith County Sheriffs Office that day, Detective Creech had received a call and was advised to pick up a tape recorder. Neither Dave Lawrence nor Detective Creech nor myself, we did not have a recorder with us. So we had stopped by to pick up a recorder. We had brought that in with us. We had let Timothy know that we were going to record this conversation and that he could voluntarily say no to that. But he agreed to that. During the course of the interview we ultimately get to a part where we are trying to locate where the bodies might be but we had noticed that the recorder was not recording at that time. So at that point we did a summary tape statement. We turned the recorder on and we went over some of the things that we had previously discussed.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He did, yes. So he, on the recording you will actually hear him talk about this, I think he says part two.

DAVID MACKEY: I think the biggest change is we had a questionnaire that was asked of Timothy Jones. And on some of those answers he reverts back some of his earlier statements of him being afraid of the children.

DAVID MACKEY: He does. He talks more about voices in his head, seeing people in the room.

DAVID MACKEY: No.

DAVID MACKEY: No. Neither one of us had seen that questionnaire previously.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. During the interview, what we find out is Lexington County is certainly going to have jurisdiction. That is where the homicides occurred. So during the course of that interview that questionnaire was provided to him and he was to ask those questions. That is what happened.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. Detective Creech actually had possession of the recorder.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, that is a copy of the recording.

DAVID MACKEY: The summary taped statement.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: I was asking him questions about the notes, about what he did. Early on he was not truthful about that and what he would often do is turn towards Detective Creech to attempt to engage him in conversation, so as to not answer my questions. This happened for quite a while, early on in the interview.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. Detective Creech had started the tape and we went back to the beginning of September 28th and we had Timothy Jones walk us through that, again, walking him through that.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: It was there early on in the interview but once we got to the point where he was telling us what he did that had gone away.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, there was no talk about fear. It was about his son not coming off of it.

DAVID MACKEY: He did, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He does revisit that, yes. And you heard what he said, the tape speaks for itself.

DAVID MACKEY: It was.

DAVID MACKEY: He was provided that during the interview itself.

DAVID MACKEY: I would not have.

DAVID MACKEY: Throughout the interview, certainly early on in his conversations with previous law enforcement, he was not being truthful and he was looking to distance himself for this crime and people often give a reason why they do something. When you look at his actions, what he did, he picks those children up that day, he kills those children, he ultimately buys things to dismember those children, he puts them in garbage bags. All of those things he lies to us about and he tells us, he does this because he is afraid of those children, they were conspiring against him. But once he comes off this and he begins telling us why he did these things, this all stems from Nahtahn and that Nahtahn did not tell his father that day, his son would not tell his father the truth. And this is what leads to, what he says was an accidental death with Nahtahn and then after that he does say that the voices in his head tells him no one is going to believe him. So he goes forward and he kills the rest of the children.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, I think he circles back to that, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: It was late in the day on the 8th and we did try to locate on maps, on computers where the children might be located. But we also revisit the following day on the 9th.

DAVID MACKEY: We do. He is very good with computers and he said if he had access to a computer he felt he may be able to show us the location. From those receipts we knew the children would be between Greenville, Alabama and Camden, Alabama. He knew there was, the topography of the area where he had dumped the bodies was elevated and it was a logging road. And he believed it was along Highway 10. So we were able to get him initially an Ipad. He did not like that, he wanted a Mac or Windows that he could operate and Google Maps to attempt to locate where these children were. He went into that, he wasn't able to find quite the map he was looking for on that computer. We had maps laid down that the Sheriff and MBI were able to bring in with us and we focused on that area. And he felt that, he was willing to come with us, he was, he acknowledged that his children did deserve a proper burial. And that night he was willing to come with us to try, did not want to waste our time but he was willing to see if he could identify the exact place where he dumped the bodies.

DAVID MACKEY: He did, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He did. He was in a vehicle in front of the vehicle I was in, sitting beside Detective Creech.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: That particular day, Eric Johnson, who you had heard from before with the Mississippi Bureau of Investigations, had provided Timothy Jones an advise of rights when he was brought in. I had witnessed that. At that point I had asked Timothy in front of the investigators just to recap on the night of the 28th the events that had occurred up to the point of where he had dumped those bodies. So we went through those details with the law enforcement officers there. You had SLED, of course you had Lexington County there, you had Smith County Sheriff Deputies there, we had the Mississippi Bureau of Investigations, effected a lot of jurisdictions, so they could hear essentially where the crimes were committed, what his actions were and where he said those bodies should be located.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. I had him recap the manner and method in which he had killed the children. We spoke about Nahtahn. He did mention something new, he told us that day on the 28th, when he was confronting Nahtahn, Nahtahn had broken Timothy Jones' prescription glasses.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He appeared to be harboring some anger still towards his son.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: No.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, it was.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: I did.

DAVID MACKEY: While we were driving up I was actually on the phone with Detective Creech and I could hear Timothy Jones saying, this is it. And Detective Creech said, okay, he believes this is it. But when you open the doors you immediately could smell the decay. And David Lawrence and myself, who I rode with from SLED, knew that this was going to be the area where the children were.

DAVID MACKEY: I do. Detective Creech went back with Timothy Jones as well.

DAVID MACKEY: I did.

DAVID MACKEY: I did. I actually helped in moving some of the bodies into the body bags we had opened up, I didn't open up the garbage bags themselves but I wanted to see if all five children were there. I also wanted to see if they were dismembered in any way so I did help place a few of the bodies into the body bags and made sure we had accounted for all five of the children.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Good afternoon.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, some of the information, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: That Detective Creech did?

DAVID MACKEY: I don't recall.

DAVID MACKEY: I don't remember that.

DAVID MACKEY: I don't recall, well, I know we showed up at the Smith County jail and we did talk to the Investigators who were with Mr. Jones, Sr. And we did talk about some of the issues with the mother but I don't recall Detective Creech specifically told me that.

DAVID MACKEY: I don't remember.

DAVID MACKEY: I don't.

DAVID MACKEY: No.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Correct.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct. Right.

DAVID MACKEY: We didn't know at that time but we know now that that--

DAVID MACKEY: I did not know that.

DAVID MACKEY: No.

DAVID MACKEY: Not much later on. But, yes, you are correct. He did not sign it right away, he agreed to speak with us. He did state that he would be self-incriminating himself. But while we were asking those background questions he did reach across and he signed.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He was. He drove actually with Detective Creech and myself. He actually drove us to the Smith County Sheriffs office.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: He did.

DAVID MACKEY: It can be.

DAVID MACKEY: With some things, yes. I don't pretend to know what truly happened in that home. I can tell you exactly what he told us.

DAVID MACKEY: But the only one who truly knows what happened to those children is Timothy Jones.

DAVID MACKEY: No, we did not.

DAVID MACKEY: No, we did not deploy that investigative tool.

DAVID MACKEY: There were times.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Sure.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes, I believe so.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes. And some of that was he got garbage bags, he said for the babies. But also he had trash.

DAVID MACKEY: So, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes and that's what he told us, yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes at times he says that. But at times he told us they are only kids, that it would be, it didn't seem plausible that they would be conspiring against him in that way.

DAVID MACKEY: That portion about the gun he does mention on the tape part.

DAVID MACKEY: That's correct.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Essentially for twenty minutes we kind of did a cursory summary of what had occurred. And then there is a good portion of the time where the questionnaire, we go over that questionnaire.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Correct.

DAVID MACKEY: For the questionnaire part?

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.

DAVID MACKEY: Yes.