5.Roberta Thornsberry — Direct/Cross/Redirect (Part 2)
606 linesROBERTA THORNSBERRY, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: If you'll have a seat over there, please. State your name and spell your last for the record.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: My name is Roberta Thornsberry, T-H-O-R-N-S-B-E-R-R-Y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Good afternoon, Ms. Thornsberry.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Good afternoon.
CASEY SECOR: If you would, just tell the jury who you are?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I'm Timothy Ray, Jr.'s grandmother.
CASEY SECOR: And that would make you the great-grandmother of who?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, Merah, Eli, Elaine, Nahtahn.
CASEY SECOR: And Gabe?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: And Gabe.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. You took the stand a little bit earlier today, we had a hearing. And based on that hearing, we're going to start at the point in your life when you got together with Larry Thornsberry, is that okay?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's okay.
CASEY SECOR: And he's your current husband?
CASEY SECOR: How old were you when you and Larry got married?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Eighteen.
CASEY SECOR: And you're still with Larry today?
CASEY SECOR: But your relationship had its problems early on, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, yeah. Yes.
CASEY SECOR: And based on various things that were going on in your life at that time were some drugs and alcohol involved with your relationship with Larry and your lives, right?
CASEY SECOR: Sometimes that bubbled over into violence between y'all?
CASEY SECOR: And one time y'all actually got divorced, right?
CASEY SECOR: And while you were divorced, did you marry somebody else?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I did.
CASEY SECOR: Who was that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Phil Caliendo.
CASEY SECOR: Phil Caliendo. But you and Larry ended up getting back together after that?
CASEY SECOR: If you would, tell the jury a little bit about your son, who you call Big Tim, right?
CASEY SECOR: And that's Timmy's daddy?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: And Timmy's mom, Cynthia, when they got together, they were living with you, right?
CASEY SECOR: And how old were they, do you remember?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: They were, I think, 19.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And when Cynthia was pregnant with Timmy, they were living with you, right?
CASEY SECOR: And tell the jury, if you would, about things that you started noticing about Cynthia when she became pregnant with Timmy.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: She just -- you know, she went to herself. She was more like alone. She would go to her room. She wouldn't come out of her room after my son would go to work. He would come home and ask where she was at and I would think she was there because I never would see her go out and come to find out, she would crawl through the windows and leave. And then one time, he came home and he couldn't find her and she was in the closet cutting up all of her clothes, had all of her clothes cut up and was hiding in the closet. You know, just strange things. She was nutty, nutty as a fruitcake, bed bug, whatever you want to call it. But there was something going on.
CASEY SECOR: But you cared about her?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I did. I loved her.
CASEY SECOR: And if you would, tell the jury about once Timmy's born, how did you see Cynthia's interactions with Timmy as an infant?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It was just -- once again, it was a strange relationship. She never -- I was a mother, so I never seen her to be the mother that we normally are, you know, how you cuddle your babies and if they cry, you run to them immediately. She didn't do those things. She would let him lay and cry. She would let him lay in urine. And I would have to attend to him. And then she would tell me, I wish he would just shut the fuck up. I mean, she didn't even want to hear him cry. She didn't really want any part of him.
CASEY SECOR: And when she said that -- of course, everybody excuse our language, but when she said she wished Timmy would shut the fuck up, he was an infant, is that right?
CASEY SECOR: In terms of other things that she did to Timmy when he was an infant in terms of dressing him and things, will you tell the jury about that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, it would be 90 degrees outside and she would put him in flannel jeans and a flannel shirt with a tee shirt. And I would be telling her, Cindy, it's so hot. He would be sweaty. His little hair will be wet with sweat. And she would say, he needs to be covered. His body needs to be covered. She would bath [sic] him in cold water. She would give him laxatives to cleanse his body. She would not feed him because she didn't want a fat baby. She just let him cry constantly.
CASEY SECOR: And did you ever get to the point where you thought it was unsafe for Timmy to be in her care?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, I did.
CASEY SECOR: And did you sometimes not know where she was with Timmy?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Lots of times, I didn't know where she was at with him.
CASEY SECOR: Eventually, Big Tim had Cynthia committed, is that right?
CASEY SECOR: And when I say committed, committed to what?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: A mental part of the hospital.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And that was as a consequence, I guess, of the things that you've told the jury about?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: Big Tim and Cynthia's relationship obviously started falling apart?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very much.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
CASEY SECOR: Did they begin to fight and argue over custody of Timmy?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I didn't see that part, but I know there was a lot of it because Tim would find her and he would bring Little Tim back. And then she would come back for a day or so and as soon as he would go back to work or something, she would take Little Tim and off she'd go again. And then he might not find her for another week or so.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I mean, it was just on and off.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. And did Big Tim eventually get custody of Little Tim?
CASEY SECOR: And did the police eventually have to get involved because of the custody issue?
CASEY SECOR: And will you tell the jury about that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Her and her sister came to my house and they were going to kidnap Little Tim. And she was upstairs talking with me and her sister said she needed to go to the bathroom. And she went into the bathroom and tried to crawl -- she crawled out the window with the baby and was going over the fence in my yard and my daughter stopped her. And the police were called and her and Cynthia both were arrested. And we had Little Tim, though. She didn't get to take him that time.
CASEY SECOR: And he would have been about how old at that point?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Probably at that time, he was probably maybe a year and a half old, two, somewhere in that area.
CASEY SECOR: When Big Tim gets legal custody of Timmy, that sort of means by default that you have custody of Little Timmy, too, because you're one of his -- you became one of his --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: They were with me and I watched Timmy when my son worked.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. So at that point, you're the closest thing he has to a mother, is that correct?
CASEY SECOR: As he's growing up with you and Big Tim and Larry, of course, right, and other family members?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: There still is in your family, based on a variety of issues people have, issues with alcohol and drugs, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: And still, there are times when it bubbles over into violence?
CASEY SECOR: And in the sort of the mid-1980's as Tim's growing up, there are times that the police have to come to the house, right?
CASEY SECOR: And that's for things like fighting?
CASEY SECOR: And, at least, on one occasion, a shooting?
CASEY SECOR: And issues involving drugs, right?
CASEY SECOR: And those are things that Timmy was around as a young kid?
CASEY SECOR: Now, I know you've told me in the past one of the strengths of your family is that people can get into very heated fights and arguments and then they get over it, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: Who in your family couldn't sort of do that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Little Tim.
CASEY SECOR: And why do you think that was?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He just had his own little way, you know. When things didn't go his way, then he didn't like you that day. He wouldn't talk to you.
CASEY SECOR: So would he shut down?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah, he'd shut down.
CASEY SECOR: Did he seem more sensitive and delicate to you than other people?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He was very sensitive when he was little.
CASEY SECOR: Did he talk to you a lot about where his mom was?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He asked a lot for his mom.
CASEY SECOR: And at that point, I guess you didn't have any idea where Cynthia was?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I didn't.
CASEY SECOR: What about Timmy growing up and friends, did he have a lot of friends?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He didn't have a lot of friends, no, not a lot. He was more to hisself.
CASEY SECOR: Do you remember having birthday parties for him where friends came over?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Not so much friends, but we had such a large family that it didn't -- we didn't have to invite friends. We'd have 20, 25 kids just with the family.
CASEY SECOR: Tell the jury about your impression of Tim growing up in terms of his -- I know you always said he was smart, but about him being sort of gullible and naive.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He was, but he was so intelligent. He was smart and he was -- he believed so much, you know.
CASEY SECOR: Did you get the impression that he just would believe things, though, without investigating very much? I think you've told me about --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, he would.
CASEY SECOR: -- him seeing infomercials.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He would believe that he could feed the VCR, you know, try to feed it dog food. Because it had an opening on it, that was a mouth. I'm like, no, that's not a mouth. You cannot feed the VCR dog food.
CASEY SECOR: Who was Elaine? Tell the jury who Elaine was?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Elaine was my daughter.
CASEY SECOR: Your daughter. And how far apart in age were Elaine and Timmy?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Twenty years.
CASEY SECOR: So they were close, I guess, growing up?
CASEY SECOR: And tell the jury what happened to Elaine.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Elaine died of cancer when she was 29.
CASEY SECOR: And Timmy was about 13?
CASEY SECOR: Was that a pretty big blow to your family?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And I think I'm right that your daughter, Elaine, who died became the reason why Timmy and Amber decided to call Abigail Elaine, is that right?
CASEY SECOR: When you daughter, Elaine, died, she had three children?
CASEY SECOR: And what happened to those three children?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It was a nasty court battle. I fought their father for custody and the Judge basically said he wasn't a good dad, but he was their dad and it was all they had. So he put the kids back with him, but I ended up getting the kids later because as they got older and started getting in trouble, he would just drop them off one by one.
CASEY SECOR: Did you have some problems with their dad?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, yes. I had to get an order of protection against him. He would call me up and threaten me that he was going to kill, numerous things.
CASEY SECOR: And that was a time when Timmy was living with you, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes -- well, Timmy wasn't living with me, but he lived close to me. He was there a lot.
CASEY SECOR: Because he was back and forth, I guess, from your house to Big Tim's house?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: You remember the car accident that Timmy got in when he was 15?
CASEY SECOR: Tell the jury what you remember about that.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I just remember my son telling me, Mom, Tim's been in a bad accident. And we went to the hospital. He appeared to be okay as far as we knew.
CASEY SECOR: And did you think that Timmy changed from the car accident?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Not really. I just thought Timmy was becoming a teenager, yeah. I seen the place on his head that never went away. I was always concerned about that, but my son assured me that the doctors said that he was okay.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. And so the things that may have changed about him, you attributed to being a teenager?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right. I mean, you know, Tim did a lot of silly things, but, you know, it was always like, you know, he's getting older. You know, it's just part of growing up.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. But before he had been a pretty -- a good student, sort of a quiet --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He was always a good student.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah. And then afterwards, he had a little trouble more in school and you knew that he got arrested for some things?
CASEY SECOR: And you knew that he tried to get into the Navy, right?
CASEY SECOR: And was that a strange choice, did you think, for him?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: The Navy?
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, because he was -- you know, he wanted to be, you know, something special.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: So it wasn't a strange choice. I was just shocked that I never knew why he got out of the Navy.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I mean, I always was told from him that it was something to do with his ear because he couldn't hear. I did not realize that it was because of mental conditions. I didn't know that until just recently.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. Timmy goes to prison for the things that he was arrested for, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: (Nods head.)
COURT REPORTER: Is that a yes?
CASEY SECOR: I'm sorry. Ms. Thornsberry, just say yes or no for the Court Reporter. Is that a yes? A Yes.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Tell the jury the biggest change you see when Timmy comes out of prison. What's the biggest change in him to you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: The religion.
CASEY SECOR: And tell the jury what you mean by that.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: When he came out of prison, it was just like everything was about the Bible. I mean, he couldn't talk to you without it being involved in the Bible. He would tell me, you know, the church I was going to, the religion I believed in, I wasn't going to get to heaven, that I needed to go to the type of religion that he was in. I needed to learn how to speak in tongues. And I would just tell him I don't believe in that. You know, that's not the way I was brought up. But he really tried to force the religion. It was constantly. It was religion.
CASEY SECOR: And was he aggressive about the way that he presented it to you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: At times, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And do you remember him speaking in tongues?
CASEY SECOR: And I think in the past you've told me that you felt like it would -- he had been pulled in by a cult, is that right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I did. That's the way I totally felt.
CASEY SECOR: And did you get the feeling as though he thought that he had a superior knowledge to other people about religion?
CASEY SECOR: What about reading the Bible to the kids? I think by that point Merah and Eli were born.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He read the Bible to his children all the time. I mean, there was -- you know, they weren't allowed to watch TV. They weren't allowed to listen to music and stuff. I mean, it was all religion.
CASEY SECOR: Do you remember thinking to yourself that you thought the kids might like some normal kids books?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Well, I remember I wanted to buy Merah some little capris and little shirts for the summer and he literally told me to go to the part of the store I was at and look at the restroom and tell me what I seen on the doors. And I'm like, I see stick people. He says, what do they have on? I'm like, well, you know, the little boys got like on pants on, I guess, and the little girls like a dress on the women's washroom. And he says, that's because that's what they're supposed to wear, Grandma. And I just thought that was, you know, so strange.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. Did you talk to him about your concerns about his religious beliefs?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: There was no talking to Tim about what he believed in religion, no.
CASEY SECOR: Did he -- he would just shut down?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Shut down and wouldn't talk to me for a while.
CASEY SECOR: If you would, Ms. Thornsberry, tell the jury about a visit with Cynthia down in Mississippi. And Cynthia, again, is Timmy's biological mom?
CASEY SECOR: But none of you had seen her since when?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I had not seen her since he was like two and a half years told, two years old. And he just kept insisting -- in his mind, he thought that his dad and I had hid her away from him and wouldn't let him see her. And I always tried to tell him this is not true, Tim. Your mom was sick. He wouldn't have it. So, finally, somehow I found out where she was at in Syracuse, New York. And so I called there and I talked to the hospital and they told me that I couldn't talk to her. They would get a message back to her. And she called us and then my son arranged for her to come to Mississippi to see Little Tim. So she came to Mississippi to see Little Tim, but when she got there, he didn't want no part of her. Because he seen just how sick she was and he didn't want her around his kids. So she ended up staying at my house for like five or six days because that's where she wanted to stay. And I slept in my room with a chair up against my door. I was afraid of her.
CASEY SECOR: How did she look to you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: She looked -- when she got off of the bus, she had on men's trousers and had like a rope tied around them and a man's shirt and men's shoes. She was very, very heavy, overweight. She just looked like she had never been taken care of.
CASEY SECOR: Did you recognize her at all as the Cynthia that you had known back in the -- around 1980?
CASEY SECOR: At this time, you are living in Mississippi around this time with Larry, correct?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: And your son, Big Tim, is living in Mississippi as well?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Correct.
CASEY SECOR: And Little Tim and Amber are living in Mississippi?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: And they have Merah, Eli and Nahtahn at that point?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I'm not sure if they had -- yeah, they did have Nahtahn, I think.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah. And they lived down in Starkville, Mississippi, I believe, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: At that time, I think they were still in Fulton, Mississippi.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I could be wrong, but I think it was Fulton.
CASEY SECOR: But they would come sometimes to Amory, where you lived to visit, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah.
CASEY SECOR: And tell the jury about the visits and who liked to come spend the night at your house?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, well, he wouldn't let any of the children spend the night with us, but when summer came that he was no longer with Amber and the kids came down, my son would let the kids come and spend the night with me. Merah would come and she'd bring her little backpack and all her little pajamas and stuff and she would spend the night. Eli would come and he would spend the night the next night. And then it would be Nahtahn's turn. And Nahtahn would come over and he would stay for a little while and then he would say, Granny, I want to go back to my Papa's house at the big house. I want to go to my Papa's. And he wouldn't stay, I had to call my son, Timothy, to come and pick him up.
CASEY SECOR: Because that's who Nahtahn was talking about, his Papa, is Big Tim?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah, Papa, he called him Papa.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. Will you tell the jury about Eli's garden at your house?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Eli, when he would come and spend the night with me, he would stay in the daytime with me. One time we were doing some yard work and I had a lot of little pavers and stuff. And he was like, Granny, let's build a garden. And I'm like, Okay, let's build a garden. So he carried all the rocks and he put them all around this tree. And now we call it Eli's garden.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: And he worked so hard in his little garden and he picked all the weeds out of it. And we planted the flowers. And now there's five little angels in the garden.
CASEY SECOR: It's all right. Take a deep breath.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this line of questioning. It's not relevant to what we're here for.
CASEY SECOR: I'm going to move on.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection --
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: -- going forward.
CASEY SECOR: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, I'm just going to ask you to identify some -- or I'm going to ask you if you can identify some pictures. Let me just read off the numbers on them because I messed them up. But this would be Defendant's marked for identification purposes 139, 140, 141, 142, 144, 146, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 157, 158, 160, 162, 163 and 164. Are those pictures that you've looked at before?
CASEY SECOR: And are these --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Family pictures.
CASEY SECOR: Family pictures, okay. Thank you, ma'am.
CASEY SECOR: I would offer those into evidence. Permission to publish these.
THE COURT: Subject to your objection you made previously in a hearing as to relevance, your objection is noted. They are allowed in over that objection.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir. (WHEREUPON, Defendant's Exhibit numbers 139, 140, 141, 142, 144, 146, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 157, 158, 160, 162, 163 and 164 were admitted into evidence.) (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit 143, 145, 147, 156, 159, 161 were marked for identification only.)
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, I'm just going to put some pictures up on the screen and if you'll just tell the jury who's in the picture and anything that comes to your mind about that person or that time. Is that all right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes. That is Cindy. That is Little Tim's mother.
CASEY SECOR: And do you remember where that picture was taken?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That picture was taken at my house and that was her baby shower.
CASEY SECOR: Baby shower for Little Tim?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: For Little Tim.
CASEY SECOR: And that's 139. This is 140. Who's that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That is my son, Timothy, and Little Tim.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. This is 141. Who's that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That is my son, Timothy, and Cindy and Little Tim and somebody's head there. I think it was -- that was at a Thanksgiving dinner.
CASEY SECOR: Little Tim is the --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Little Tim sitting in Cindy's lap, yes.
CASEY SECOR: How about that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's my son and Little Tim.
THE COURT: Number 142?
CASEY SECOR: I'm sorry, 142. Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And this is 144. Who's that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Little Tim and myself.
CASEY SECOR: And where was that taken?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That was taken out on the boat. We were boating.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. This is 146. Who's in that picture?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That is my son, Larry, and Little Tim playing around at my house.
CASEY SECOR: And that's Little Tim in front?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Little Tim in the front, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And tell the --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Larry, Jr. in the back.
CASEY SECOR: And tell the jury about Larry, Jr.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Larry, Jr. got killed when he was 23 in a motorcycle accident.
CASEY SECOR: That was 146. How about -- this is 148. Who's that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's my sister and Merah.
CASEY SECOR: And was that at your house?
CASEY SECOR: And this is 149. And I think you talked about this, but --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Little Tim, Amber, Merah, Eli and that's Cindy.
CASEY SECOR: That's his mom?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's his mother. That's when she came to my house.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. And I think 150 is just another picture from that visit?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Little Tim, his mother and Eli and Merah.
CASEY SECOR: This is 151. Tell the jury who is in this picture.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That is Jackie, my granddaughter, and that is Merah. I think Eli is over on this end, that's Nahtahn and that's Gabe that she's holding.
CASEY SECOR: Gabe is the little --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: And that's myself.
CASEY SECOR: That's somebody's birthday?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I think it was my birthday or some -- I don't know. It was somebody's birthday. I think they were all singing happy birthday to me.
CASEY SECOR: And this is your home in Mississippi?
CASEY SECOR: I'm going to show you 152. Who's that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Merah and myself.
CASEY SECOR: And how about 157, who's that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Merah.
CASEY SECOR: At your house?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's at my house, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And who's in the red there?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Amber.
CASEY SECOR: I'm going to show you now 160. Who's -- I know it's a little blurry, but tell the jury who that is.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's myself and Elaine.
CASEY SECOR: And where were you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: This was in Atlanta.
CASEY SECOR: And 162?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That is my husband. That is all the great-grandbabies and myself. We're all in the bed together.
CASEY SECOR: And Elaine is --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: This is in Atlanta.
CASEY SECOR: That's the same from Atlanta as well?
CASEY SECOR: Elaine's not in that picture, though, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, Elaine wasn't in there. She was asleep on the sofa.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And then the last one I want to show you is 164, which I think is the same trip as that. Is that everybody?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's the same trip with my husband. That's all of us in Atlanta, yes.
CASEY SECOR: All right. The trip to Atlanta, it was in August of 2014, is that right?
CASEY SECOR: And that was very close to the time that the babies, as I think your family referred to them, that they --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: The trip to Atlanta was -- you know, we went there to meet Tim and the grandbabies. And, first of all, he was late showing up and we waited. And then when I seen him, he had lost so much weight. And he had on a hot pink shirt and his shirt was drenched with sweat. And I'm like, why are you sweating like this? And then he was drinking and smoking cigarettes. And I had never seen this from him before. I had never seen him drinking. And then we went there and him and my husband went to get pizza because everything was closed and they walked to get the pizza. And Tim came back and he said he was going to get the car and go back and pick up my husband. Well, my husband called and asked me, he says, where's Little Tim? I'm like, well, I don't know, he come to get you. And so my husband walked back and Little Tim showed up after that. And once again, he was just so wet with sweat and just, you know. I knew something was wrong and I didn't know what. I mean, just intuition and you know. You know something wasn't right, but you couldn't put your finger on it. And we tried to get him to let us bring the youngest children home with us because he was supposed to come down the end of that month or the next month, somewhere in there. But anyway, we tried to get him to let us bring the ones that weren't in school. And he told me, he said, Grandma, I can't be away from my babies and he wouldn't let us bring them.
CASEY SECOR: Tell the jury about what -- when he came back to the hotel late that night what he said about Elaine.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Well, he had asked if we'd watch the kids while he went out that night and I'm like well, yeah. And the next morning, he was there and he says, Grandma, he says you're not a very good babysitter. He says I came back at 3:30 and Elaine was behind the couch screaming and crying. And I'm like, really? And I, you know, didn't go into great details with him, but then I asked my husband, I'm like, Larry, was Elaine not in the bed with us? And said, Bertie, Elaine was in the bed with us. She wasn't in the living room screaming and crying. He said, she took a nap in there, but after that, Elaine slept. When we got ready to go to sleep, we put her in here, too.
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, if you'd thought that the children were in any danger, you'd have done something?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, I would have -- yes. I would have -- if I'd had to fight him or whatever, call the police or whatever, I would have never let him touch those kids if I thought they were in danger.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
CASEY SECOR: May I approach again, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, I just want to show you what's been marked for identification purposes as Defense Exhibit number 138. Do you recognize that?
CASEY SECOR: What is it?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's a video of Atlanta.
CASEY SECOR: Of the trip that you were just describing?
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, I would ask to move Defense Exhibit 138 into evidence and publish it as well.
SHAWN GRAHAM: No objection.
THE COURT: No objection to 138. (WHEREUPON, Defendant's Exhibit number 138 was admitted into evidence.)
CASEY SECOR: You remember -- who is in this video for the most part? Do you remember, Ms. Thornsberry?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: The grandkids, Little Tim, myself and my husband.
CASEY SECOR: Before we play it, I guess that's Little Tim in the pink shirt you were talking about?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: In the pink shirt I was describing, yes.
CASEY SECOR: And then who's on the couch there?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's me with Elaine and Merah in front of her dad.
CASEY SECOR: And are you and your husband, Larry, the only members of the family that ever met Elaine?
CASEY SECOR: We're going to play it if that's all right with Your Honor. (WHEREUPON, a video was published to the jury starting at 2:17 and finished at 2:18 p.m.)
CASEY SECOR: I'm going to stop, Ms. Thornsberry, but I appreciate you sharing your memories with the jury. And I thank you so much for that. The State might have some questions for you, okay?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Graham.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRAHAM:
SHAWN GRAHAM: Ms. Thornsberry, I'm sorry you have to be here today.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Thank you.
SHAWN GRAHAM: The video that we just watched, that was in Atlanta --
SHAWN GRAHAM: -- in August? Do you know when in August that was?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I think it was like August the 3rd.
SHAWN GRAHAM: August the 3rd?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: (Nods head.) It was early August.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And your grandson, Tim, had come and met you all in Atlanta?
SHAWN GRAHAM: How many days did y'all spend there?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Pardon me?
SHAWN GRAHAM: How many days did you spend there?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Did we stay there?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Just overnight.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Just that one night?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: (Nods head.)
SHAWN GRAHAM: Took the kids to the aquarium?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No. We kind of thought we were going to go somewhere with them on Sunday, but when he got up Sunday morning, he was ready to leave. He had already checked us out. He was ready to leave. We had breakfast and he left.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And I think I read somewhere that he was drinking that night that you saw him?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He was drinking that night, yes.
SHAWN GRAHAM: That was something new that you hadn't seen?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Since then, you've learned that he was smoking spice?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I have heard that, yes.
SHAWN GRAHAM: You didn't know that at the time?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, sir.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Was he smoking cigarettes at the time?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, sir.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Did he ever explain to you where he went during the time that he disappeared and left your husband at the pizza place?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, sir.
SHAWN GRAHAM: So you don't know what he was doing?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, sir.
SHAWN GRAHAM: When he came to Atlanta, did he seem happy to see you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, sir.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And you were happy to see your great-grandbabies?
SHAWN GRAHAM: And how did Tim get along with your husband?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very good.
SHAWN GRAHAM: They got along well?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very well.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Tim was happy to see him and --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, yes.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And Tim -- I saw in the video, it looked like -- there was a lot of noise. I guess the TV was on, is that what that background noise is?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: They were playing music.
SHAWN GRAHAM: So that's what Tim was paying attention to, I guess?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Probably.
SHAWN GRAHAM: But he did play with the children, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, he did.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And he smiled and he laughed?
SHAWN GRAHAM: So since Tim was born, honestly, you've been his mother?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Tried to be.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And you've done the best you could?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Tim, Sr., his dad, loves Tim?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very much.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And the whole family loves him?
SHAWN GRAHAM: In fact, you said that he didn't have a lot of friends, but he had so much family?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right. We had a large family.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And there may have been some chaotic times, but there were a lot of good times, too, weren't there?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: More good than bad.
SHAWN GRAHAM: There was a question about the car wreck when he was 15. And you remember that when he got that skull fracture?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I do.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And as far as his intelligence, the way he behaved, how he interacted with people, you didn't really see a difference in the way he was after the wreck as before the wreck is what I heard you say?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Well, he was different after the wreck, but I think that was because he had gotten in trouble with his dad and just, you know, he was getting older. So, you know, he was a teenager.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Fifteen going on 20, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right, so, I mean, you know.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Earlier, I heard you say that he was special and he could do anything he wanted, is that right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He was.
SHAWN GRAHAM: He was very goal oriented. He would set a goal for himself and then he would work to make it happen, correct?
SHAWN GRAHAM: He went to school. He did well. He succeeded --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very well in school.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Very smart, there's no question --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: We were very proud of him.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Very proud of him when he graduated with honors --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very proud of him.
SHAWN GRAHAM: -- from Mississippi State?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: So proud of him as a person, as a father. He was just a great person.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Was he the first one to graduate from college --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Pardon me?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Was he the first to graduate from college?
SHAWN GRAHAM: And then when he got his job at Intel?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: My husband was so proud to just drive by that place.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And you knew he was working as a validation engineer? I'm sure he told you, right, as part of the team?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, he would try to explain it to me.
SHAWN GRAHAM: You never heard of him getting in trouble, any kind of behavior problems at work?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Or in college?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, sir.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And he married Amber and wanted to have a good marriage? That was one of the goals I think he told he wanted to have.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: They appeared to be very happy.
SHAWN GRAHAM: You said that after he came out of prison, though, I guess he found religion?
SHAWN GRAHAM: And that that -- his beliefs were different than how you all had raised him?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And you mentioned something about a cult, but, I mean --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: To me, it was just he was so into the religion, it was just -- you know, he'd eat, drink and sleep it. You know, there was just, you know -- you couldn't go swimming, you know, you couldn't do this, you couldn't do that. It was just -- you know, to me, it was just -- it was a lot.
SHAWN GRAHAM: It was a lot. But he still during that -- how old was he during that time?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Maybe 25.
SHAWN GRAHAM: So was he working at the time?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I think he was going to school after he came out of prison. He started to go back to school, he was working, he met Amber.
SHAWN GRAHAM: So he became very religious with very conservative views, but he also was going to school, working and was married?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Do you remember filling out an affidavit for the Department of Mental Health, Ms. Thornsberry?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Do I remember filling it out?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Yeah.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: For myself or --
SHAWN GRAHAM: I have a document with your signature on it.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I don't have my glasses on. I remember, yeah, signing that.
SHAWN GRAHAM: You don't remember signing it?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I do remember.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Oh, you do remember signing it. I think the Department of Mental Health had sent you a questionnaire and asked you to fill it out. Does that sound correct?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That sounds about right, yeah.
SHAWN GRAHAM: One of the things that is noted in here is -- there was a question about aggression. And your answer was, He had normal tantrums like any other kid, but he wasn't aggressive at all. He was kind as a child. And I'm on the second page if you want to follow --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He was kind as a child. I mean, you know, yes, he had to be the center of attention, but he was -- you know, he was kind.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And he wanted to obey the rules?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah, he obeyed the rules, yes, till he became to a certain age like any other child.
SHAWN GRAHAM: There was a question about mental health problems he had and your answer was, not that I know of that he ever went to the doctor for?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I didn't know of it, no.
SHAWN GRAHAM: If you would have seen something, you would have done something about it, wouldn't you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Well, as he got older, he was not around me much. I mean, he would -- if he was talking to his dad, he didn't talk to me. If he talked to me, he didn't talk to his dad as he got older. After he got with Amber, it was -- it was all about Amber and the kids.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Did Tim talk to you about problems that he had?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: As far as what?
SHAWN GRAHAM: When he was growing up.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He talked a lot about -- you know, he would cry a lot about not having a mom. Mother's Day, you know, why didn't his mom love him, things like that.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Things that bothered him, he would talk to you about?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah.
SHAWN GRAHAM: You noted that he never told you that he heard any voices? He never said to you that he heard voices, did he?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, he never told me that.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Did he ever tell you that the children were trying to harm him?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He would make little comments every once in a while, like, sometimes, Grandma, I think they're out to get me. But, you know, just kind of a normal comment to me.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Joking comment?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah.
SHAWN GRAHAM: He never told you that he was really afraid of his children, did he?
SHAWN GRAHAM: There's a note in the answer form, which I'm on like the third page now where it says Page 11, it's asking you some questions about the trip to Atlanta. And it said, He got up early the next morning, was ready to go. He seemed like he was in a hurry to leave. Do you remember what he said?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Do I remember what he said when he had to leave?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Uh-huh.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No, just something about he had to get home.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Okay.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I mean, once again, we were shocked that we weren't spending the day together that day.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And I think you said that you offered to take, at least, the babies, I guess?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: We actually tried to get him to let us take the two small ones. Not the ones that were in school because we knew they were in school, but the babies that weren't in school, let us take them home with us because he was going to be coming in.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Because he was going to come visit for Labor Day?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes. And he says, Grandma, I can't be without my babies. You know, he says, I drove every weekend when dad had them to see them. He says, I can't -- I can't be without my babies.
SHAWN GRAHAM: If you would have thought there was something wrong with him and he was a threat to the children, you would have taken those babies then and there, wouldn't you?
SHAWN GRAHAM: All five of them?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Do you remember having a telephone conversation with a doctor named Dr. Frierson, who's the Court-appointed psychiatrist?
SHAWN GRAHAM: A phone conversation with him?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I don't remember what it was about, but I remember him calling me. I think it was something about this paper here.
SHAWN GRAHAM: I think you're probably right --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right, it was just a very short conversation. And he's the one that actually let me know that it was the 3rd of August that I was there because I seem to keep thinking that it was like a week before all this and it wasn't that.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And he notes that in his report?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, he did.
SHAWN GRAHAM: He wrote down, and you tell me if this is true, talking about you, Ms. Thornsberry reports that as a child, Tim's father spoiled him beyond recognition?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, yes, he was very spoiled.
SHAWN GRAHAM: You told Dr. Frierson that your grandson, Tim, was a good child and did not get in much trouble?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: True.
SHAWN GRAHAM: You have no knowledge of him ever doing anything to harm himself?
SHAWN GRAHAM: And, in fact, he's got you quoted, and you tell me if this is true, He would never do that. He loved himself to death.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah, he would never hurt himself. But I never thought he would ever hurt his children either.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Yes, ma'am. The plan was -- the plan was that he was going to come where for Labor Day, he and the children?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: His father's --
SHAWN GRAHAM: To where?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: -- with the children. His father's. To my house.
SHAWN GRAHAM: In Mississippi?
SHAWN GRAHAM: State's Exhibit 77 in evidence has some communications off of Tim's phone and there's some things from you. On the morning of the 28th, which would have been that Thursday, there's a call from you to him that last about eight minutes and 53 seconds. Do you remember what that call was about?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Would it -- I'm asking, could it have been about him coming to see you all for Labor Day or --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It could have been, yes.
SHAWN GRAHAM: How often did y'all talk?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: We talked about two or three times a week maybe. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Did you text as well or you usually talked?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: We did text. We texted occasionally.
SHAWN GRAHAM: So you would talk two or three times a week and then text in between?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Was he always good about answering you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He actually called me all the time. I never really had to initiate the calls. I got calls from him constantly.
SHAWN GRAHAM: He called you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, he called me a lot.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Okay.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He called his grandfather a lot. He didn't always just talk to me, sometimes he would call and just talk to his grandfather.
SHAWN GRAHAM: If you did call him or text him, he'd respond, though?
SHAWN GRAHAM: I know his records show that on Friday, the 29th, in the afternoon starting around 2:00 o'clock, there's a series of probably seven or eight calls from you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I was worried.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Why were you worried?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Because he wasn't answering my call and that was unusual.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Well, I guess that's when the -- from the records, you all had talked Thursday morning. Did you -- was a normal day he would have called you on Friday?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah, he would have called me.
SHAWN GRAHAM: When was he supposed to come down?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Pardon me?
SHAWN GRAHAM: When were they supposed to come down?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: They were supposed to be leaving Friday morning.
SHAWN GRAHAM: They were supposed --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: And coming to our house, yes.
SHAWN GRAHAM: So he was supposed to be driving in --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
SHAWN GRAHAM: What time did you expect him to be there Friday?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I expected him to probably be there by, you know, 2:00 or 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And when he didn't show, that's when you began to call?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right. And when I didn't get in touch with him, I was just petrified they had been in an accident or something. You know, why isn't he answering my calls.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And it looks like there's another missed call. So you had several around 2:00, 2:30, and then you tried again around 4:13. And then there's actually a 31-second call where it says -- it looks like that he connected to you. I don't know if you left a message or you actually --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I left a message probably.
SHAWN GRAHAM: No, this would have been him calling you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He could have left me a message.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Do you remember any messages that he left?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No. Not on Friday, no.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And it continues on for you trying to get in touch with him and him not answering. And then you send texts, Where are you? Are you getting my messages? And you're worried?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes. The same way you'd be worried if any kid was traveling and then all of a sudden you don't hear -- you're not hearing from them.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Yes, ma'am. And then it looks like on -- late in the evening on the 29th at 6:40, he sends you a text that says, sorry, tied up today, not going to be able to make it today. You remember getting that text?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I do.
SHAWN GRAHAM: And, in fact, you responded back that says, Call me, please. What's going on, Sweetheart? Call me.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: (Nods head.)
SHAWN GRAHAM: And he didn't call?
SHAWN GRAHAM: And you kept texting him, worried about him, worried about the children?
SHAWN GRAHAM: And he doesn't respond?
SHAWN GRAHAM: Never, did he?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: The next thing I heard was on Wednesday, my husband was in Birmingham at an auto auction and my phone rings and it was the Principal or either the Assistant Principal at the children's school. And they told me that the kids had not showed up at school. And that was just unusual, you know, for Little Tim. So then I -- I knew then something was wrong. So I called my son and that's when my son, I think, in return, called the police there. And I also called a gentleman at his work. The Principal gave me the number to a friend of his at work that he worked with and I called and they said he hadn't been in at work.
SHAWN GRAHAM: One last question, ma'am. If your grandson would have called you and said I need you to come pick up four of my children, something happened to Nahtahn, what would you have done?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I would have been right there.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Thank you, ma'am.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: You all right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: (Nods head in the affirmative.)
CASEY SECOR: Just one last question I wanted to ask you.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Okay.
CASEY SECOR: You told Mr. Graham how happy you and Larry were to see Timmy and the kids in Atlanta, right?
CASEY SECOR: Had it been a long time since Timmy had come to visit?
CASEY SECOR: About how long?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It had been the Christmas before that, I think '12, 2012 or something.
CASEY SECOR: Christmas of 2012?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yeah. It had been like -- it had been over a year because we had never seen Elaine.
CASEY SECOR: Right. So it had been almost, I guess, a year and a half since you had seen them?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Somewhere in that area.
CASEY SECOR: Since you had seen him or any of the babies?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: And just -- you don't have to go into a lot of detail, but what happened in the Christmas of 2012 in Mississippi that stopped his normal regular visitation there?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He came to my house for Christmas and, you know, he just -- he wasn't happy. You know, he just seemed miserable or something. And I don't know what happened after he left and went back to my son's. But my son told me the next morning, he says, Mom, he wanted to argue and I told him I wasn't arguing with him. And he just chunked the kids and he left.
CASEY SECOR: And he didn't -- he left in the middle of the night?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Left in the night. Didn't even come and say goodbye or anything.
CASEY SECOR: Do you know whether Timmy and Big Tim communicated during that year and a half?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I'm not quite sure if they did or not. I know Timmy called me a lot during that time, but he never came to see us or anything, but we talked on the phone.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That was the time when he wasn't probably talking to his dad, so he talked to me.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you very much, Ms. Thornsberry.
SHAWN GRAHAM: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step down, Ms. Thornsberry. Y'all want a quick break? Want to call the witness? Keep going, okay. Call your witness.
ROBERT MADSEN: Call Detective Brian Travis.