6.Counselor Testimony Admissibility Ruling
36 linesTHE COURT: All right, Mr. Young. All this happened 18 months before the incident in question. I don't -- I don't see the relevance.
BOYD YOUNG: The Defense's position is that Mr. Jones is mentally ill and based on his beliefs that the children had been abandoned by their mother, that's what caused him to act.
THE COURT: Eighteen months before.
BOYD YOUNG: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I don't see the relevance. The time is too remote. I don't see how that's helpful to the jury to decide whether he was knowing legally right -- moral right and wrong in August of '14. I don't see how those comments, isolated as they are with the children, help you through that defense. I don't think they're probative of anything, good or bad. I don't think they're negative or positive. I think they're just 30 minutes of testimony, or 20 minutes, however long she was up here. I don't find they're relevant at all. I mean, she talked to the kids. The kids are victims and aside from that, it sounds more like they're getting keyed up for custody. That's what I'm hearing. I don't think she's an appropriate witness for your defense.
BOYD YOUNG: I mean, our defense is that Tim, rightly, wrongly, mentally ill believed that the kids had been abandoned by their mother and it was better for them to be sent to heaven. It was morally the right thing to do to send them to heaven rather than live a life of having been abandoned by their mother like he had been.
THE COURT: I don't think that the few statements these two children made to this lady do that for you.
BOYD YOUNG: I mean, you don't think they're relevant to that?
THE COURT: Correct, they're not relevant.
BOYD YOUNG: They don't move the ball forward--
THE COURT: -- don't think they do. I mean, they're too remote in time for me. 2014 versus January of 2013, it's 18, at least, 18 months.
BOYD YOUNG: And I'm not arguing with the Court by saying this, but not on any privilege argument, but based on relevance?
THE COURT: Yes. Seems to me, privilege is the mother's around, the father's around. It was their children. I don't know why either one of them would stand in a greater position. She's now the PR, but that's kind of an equal switch to me or a balance for me. Privilege is not -- I don't see how it's harmful to either parent for that to be said, as a medical issue, it's just not.
BOYD YOUNG: I don't disagree with the Court. I just wanted to make sure that the record was clear. Of course, we think that this also goes to rebut the State's position or the State's inference that Tim was trying to keep the kids from their mother. I think that's been their statement and argument. We think this goes to rebut that.
THE COURT: I don't think this is relevant testimony.
BOYD YOUNG: Your Honor, I'd like to --
THE COURT: I'll make that my ruling until you can make your record on the grounds you want.
BOYD YOUNG: Yes, Your Honor. We would just object under the due process clause of the United States Constitution, Pennsylvania vs. Ritchie, 480 U.S. 39. We would also point out, of course, the heightened reliability necessary in cases in which the State is seeking the death penalty.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
BOYD YOUNG: Your Honor, I'd like to make copies of the records.
THE COURT: Sure. You can make those Court's Exhibits.
BOYD YOUNG: Will we also be prevented to say that Tim took the kids to counseling?
THE COURT: I don't think you're prevented from doing that.
RICK HUBBARD: That should already be in through Dr. Hames. She met him in the lobby, because she referred him. I think that's already in.
THE COURT: You got that through Dr. Hames.
BOYD YOUNG: Well, I'd like to call her and say you were the counselor, you met with the kids.
THE COURT: Okay. I don't know what harm that is. He can call her and say the two children went to her. You ready to bring the jury in?
BOYD YOUNG: Sure. Just so I'm clear, I can't say anything that Tim said about why he's bringing them?
THE COURT: Don't go into that. (WHEREUPON, Court's Exhibit numbers 92 and 93 were marked for identification.)
COURT REPORTER: These are 92 and 93, Judge.
THE COURT: 92 and 93?
COURT REPORTER: On the Court's Exhibits, right.
THE COURT: Okay. Now, bring the jury.
BOYD YOUNG: Your Honor, the Defense would also object under the right to put a complete and full defense under the Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments.
THE COURT: You have made a record. (Whereupon, the jury came into open court at approximately 3:06 p.m.)
THE COURT: Welcome back. Ready to continue, Mr. Young.