10.Todd Schelling — Direct/Cross/Redirect/Recross
217 linesTODD SCHELLING, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: If you'll have a seat over there, please. State your name and spell your last for me for the record.
TODD SCHELLING: My name is Todd Schelling, S-C-H-E-L-L-I-N-G.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Schelling, tell us how you know Tim?
TODD SCHELLING: I was the team lead of the team that Tim was on --
CASEY SECOR: Hang on just one second.
THE COURT: They're off. Fire them up.
CASEY SECOR: Let me ask you again. How do you know Tim?
TODD SCHELLING: I was the team lead for the team that Tim worked on while he was employed at Intel.
CASEY SECOR: And who did that team include other than you and Tim?
TODD SCHELLING: It was John Querry and Brice Mankowski and there were a few others that have come and gone since Tim was a team member.
CASEY SECOR: So how long did you work with Tim here?
TODD SCHELLING: I don't remember the exact day that he joined the team, but somewhere in the neighborhood of about three years, two and a half to three years.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Tell us -- before we get into your specific memories of Tim, just give us a little bit about what Intel is like in terms of work life, balance, conversations that happened at work, social activities, that type of thing.
TODD SCHELLING: Sure. So Intel is an I-tech company. It's a lot -- like a lot of other I-tech companies, it demands a lot. What was interesting about the facility here in Columbia, it was very small and the group was very tightknit, so there were times that we worked very, very hard and very close together and then there were times when things were a little bit easier, but it was a good company to work for. And I think the people that worked together here were pretty close because it was so small compared to the size of the company a lot.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. What did you -- what do you remember hearing about or knowing about Tim when he was first interviewed and right before he started to work with y'all?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, I think Tim's interview went very well. He was made an offer. Everyone I knew that met him liked him. He was easy to talk to. He joked a lot. In our team meetings, he was easy to get along with.
CASEY SECOR: What did you know about his background in terms of did he come from the type of background that most Intel types come from?
TODD SCHELLING: As we learned -- you know, as he was on the team longer, we learned a little bit more about his background. We learned that he had been in the Navy for a while. I knew that he was older. I knew that he was married and he had kids. And I think when he joined, he didn't have all five children at that time. I think it was four. So as a -- he was not kind of a normal example of the type of person you would hire straight out of school. You know, a lot of people that come straight out of school would be unmarried, they'd be single, they'd be closer to the mid-twenties and Tim was closer to 30, so his background was a little bit different.
CASEY SECOR: What about, did he -- did you know whether or not he came from a type of family that had people in professions like Intel?
TODD SCHELLING: I think -- if I recall correctly, I think Tim was the first person in his family to achieve a college degree. I mean, that was very -- it was very impressive to me. In my family, my father was the first one of his family to get a college degree and he also achieved it in part through the Air Force. So when I met Tim and learned that about him, I had a lot of respect for that.
CASEY SECOR: You've told us already a little bit about the Intel office here in Columbia. Give us an idea -- well, when you were working there, did the future of that office seem certain to you and the other people that worked there?
TODD SCHELLING: No. The -- again, Intel's a very large company and the site here was remote. It was relatively small, maybe 200 people. And I think everyone at the site each year felt some nervousness that they could decide to close the site. And we worked very hard to try to make ourselves indispensable and define ourselves as experts in our field. So I think everyone at the facility was kind of drawn together by that need to make sure that we excelled. And we supported each other a lot as a result and worked together as a single-arch team even though as an organizationally, we were a lot of small teams, but people pulled together a lot. I had one manager that was very proud of the fact. He said I built a team that's kind of ready to go to war for each other. We're always there to support each other.
CASEY SECOR: So in terms of that, the Columbia Intel office trying to prove itself, did that sense of having to prove one's self also exist within that office in terms of competition amongst employees?
TODD SCHELLING: I'm trying to understand the question.
CASEY SECOR: Yeah, that was not well said, I agree with you. How were people sort of ranked in the office in terms of their value?
TODD SCHELLING: Sure. So Intel has what's called meritocracy where you are awarded based upon how much you contribute and whether you're an expert in your field as opposed to being awarded just by how many years you've been there. So there is a culture of ensuring that you perform and that you do a good job because you do -- at Intel, you are kind of examined against how well you're doing compared to other people doing a similar job to what you're doing. And those that do those jobs better are more likely to get a promotion or a raise. It's not poisonous or overtly bad, but there is some competition amongst people. It's worked very, very well for Intel and it ask people to excel and they typically do.
CASEY SECOR: And is this something that just sort of the administration knows or is this something the employees are aware of?
TODD SCHELLING: No, employees understand as well.
CASEY SECOR: And despite that, though, I think you've already said it was sort of like a family in the Columbia office?
TODD SCHELLING: Absolutely.
CASEY SECOR: How many people approximately in the whole office?
TODD SCHELLING: About 200.
CASEY SECOR: And the people that you knew, did you interact with outside of the office?
TODD SCHELLING: Some, yes.
CASEY SECOR: What about, do people's kids get together?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah. So a lot of my closest friends are people I met at work through Intel. My wife's best friend is the wife of a person that I worked with at Intel that we met through work. There was a lot of interaction outside of work and inside of work. Intel hires sometimes in waves, so it was more common to maybe be closer friends with folks that you maybe got hired with or, at least, were around the same age or were in the same kind of phase of your life, whether you had kids or not or what neighborhood you lived in. There was a lot of interaction amongst a lot of different people.
CASEY SECOR: So the people that you knew or that you were hired in the same wave or were on your team, did you know who their wives or spouses were?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, I transferred here from Oregon originally about 20 years ago, so I kind of came in outside of the wave, but I kind of adopted the next group after that and we're still friends. Even though many of us have moved to Austin, Texas, we actually still live in the same neighborhood and we still keep in touch and do things on a regular basis.
CASEY SECOR: And the things that you knew about other people that you worked with, did you know those things about Tim? For instance, did you know where he lived?
TODD SCHELLING: I did not know where he lived.
CASEY SECOR: Did you know that he had a family of his own?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, I knew that he was married and he had four kids and then a fifth one later.
CASEY SECOR: Did you ever meet Amber?
TODD SCHELLING: I did not.
CASEY SECOR: And did you ever meet any of his children?
TODD SCHELLING: I did not.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us, if you would, initially about Tim's work ethic and performance for you on the mesh team?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, Tim was a very hard worker. He was very excited, I think, about learning -- many people that come out of college are very excited about getting in the workplace and using what they learned and Tim was no exception. I found it easy to work with him. It may be being kind of the team lead and someone that he either looked up to or -- it's a little bit tricky. I wasn't an actual manager, so I was the person that was responsible for helping him solve technical problems. And I always found it easy to work with him and always was impressed with the work that he did. And he was very enthusiastic about it. And he would volunteer to do things even though he may not have understood them to start and he would go try to read about them and learn about them and figure stuff out.
CASEY SECOR: Did you get the feeling that he cared about doing a good job?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, he very much cared about doing a good job.
CASEY SECOR: Was he always consistent?
TODD SCHELLING: Not always. I think early on, he was more consistent than closer to the death of his children. I also noticed some more absences, but, you know, at that time, we were aware that Tim had gone through a divorce and he was a single father trying to care for five children. I mean, I have two kids had been in and out of the hospital and I could understand some of the challenges with raising children. And we assumed he just needed some time and some space and he was under a lot of stress. So I think we tended to give him a little bit of latitude that maybe not everyone else needed.
CASEY SECOR: I understand. And I'm going to ask you more about the summer of 2014, but I want to go back to before that if that's all right with you.
TODD SCHELLING: Sure.
CASEY SECOR: In terms of -- well, you talked about his work ethic. What about his -- sort of his demeanor, just his mood? Was his mood consistent?
TODD SCHELLING: His mood was consistent for sure early on.
CASEY SECOR: And did that -- did you ever see that change or was he always that way up until the summer of 2014?
TODD SCHELLING: Up until the summer of 2014, I think he was consistent. There was only one occasion later in the summer of 2014 that I recall where his demeanor changed a little. Again, at Intel, as part of the demonstrating that you're an expert, there's a culture that's called constructive confrontation, which is a way to interact with people. I think we heard someone call them debate earlier, but it's a way to challenge how people think to try to arrive at a better decision. And to do it well, it takes some practice so that people don't think you're just attacking them. And I think later in the summer of 2014, I think Tim was trying some constructive confrontation techniques and maybe went a little over the top. That's the only time that I can remember him not being consistently reasonable to work with.
CASEY SECOR: Do you remember when he first -- or do you remember when you first heard about him having marital problems?
TODD SCHELLING: I don't remember the date.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. But did you ever talk to him about it?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, it came up at some point in one or more of our team meetings. I don't remember how we arrived at the subject, but it was clear around that time that he was under a lot of stress. And I imagine we asked him what was happening and he shared with us that he was going through a divorce and there was a custody battle. He shared of the details about why the divorce was happening and he was -- I mean, he was very -- he was very distraught and visibly shaken and angry that -- I mean, in a way you might expect someone to be angry going through the kind of divorce he was going through.
CASEY SECOR: And did he seem concerned about his kids?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, definitely. So his -- I believe he related to me that -- I mean, there was the divorce, but then there was a custody fight. And Tim was very clear that he felt that he would be the better parent than Amber would be. And I know that he was fighting very hard because he wanted to make sure that the kids got the type of upbringing that he believed was the better one.
CASEY SECOR: Now, given the nature of the job that y'all had at Intel and what you knew of what he had in his personal life, did that seem to you like a manageable amount of things for a person to deal with?
TODD SCHELLING: No, I was very surprised that Tim was able to continue to function as well as he did at work given what he was going through in his personal life as well. I -- I -- I was impressed and surprised by the way that he was able to juggle and balance. And that's not to say there weren't times that he suffered a little at work, but I was surprised at how well he handled it.
CASEY SECOR: And in the -- after he and Amber were separated, did you know that his kids went to live in Mississippi with their grandparents?
TODD SCHELLING: I remember him driving back and forth for some number of weeks. And he, I think, would leave after work, maybe he would leave a little early on a Friday, he would make the drive straight through and go see the kids. And he would either roll back in having driven all night Sunday or early Monday. I mean, he looked exhausted and he was still there. He still came to work. But I know he was making that drive for a couple of weeks if not a couple of months.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us about your experience with being concerned to bring to your supervisor at Intel concerns that you have about work.
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, so, again, Intel is a great company, but it can be very stressful. And there were times in my career that I felt like my balance had shifted too much onto the focus of work and not enough on my family. And I felt that the stress was enough that I needed to have a discussion about reducing what I was taking on at work. And I've been at the company a long time and Intel provides a lot of services for that, but it was still a very difficult thing to do for me to have a discussion with my manager about needing to take a break from things. Because you kind of feel like you're taking your foot off the gas and it is a very difficult thing to do in your workplace, is to kind of back off.
CASEY SECOR: So were you -- in bringing that information to the attention of your supervisor, were you worried about how they might view you after that?
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah. I think if I hadn't been at the site here so long and I hadn't had the type of friendships and relationship with the people I worked with, I think it would have been much more difficult for me to have brought that up. My manager, I had known for 10 or 15 years and I was able to have a private and discreet conversation.
CASEY SECOR: Now, at some point, I think you became aware that Tim was considering leaving Intel and leaving South Carolina?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us how you became aware of that.
TODD SCHELLING: I think Tim and I maybe discussed it at the beginning or end of one of the team meetings. I know Tim mentioned that it was hard for him here because he didn't have the support network, he didn't have family. And that trying to raise five kids was a tremendous job and that if he moved home, he thought that he might have more support there. At the time, I told Tim that I thought that he achieved a tremendous amount at Intel, he had a college degree. There wasn't going to be the kind of job back home that he would be able to have here. And I said that you should try to stay and stick it out and that job provided kind of a gateway financially for him to be able to provide better for his children.
CASEY SECOR: And did you get the sense that he was coming to you for advice on that situation?
TODD SCHELLING: I don't know -- I mean, I don't know if he -- I mean, I think he was just asking my opinion on what the pros and cons were. I don't know.
CASEY SECOR: Is that the time you had known that he was truly struggling, I think you probably would have told him something different, you think?
TODD SCHELLING: I -- I mean, I replay that conversation in my head a lot. And I often wonder if I had told him something else if we wouldn't be here today, so, yes.
CASEY SECOR: I want you to understand, no one is blaming you for anything.
TODD SCHELLING: I understand.
CASEY SECOR: The summer of 2014, just tell us about -- we've touched on this already somewhat, but what changed in Tim?
TODD SCHELLING: In the couple of months leading up to the killing, I mean, Tim did become -- his work degraded some. He was absent from work more. There were a couple of times that I noticed he seemed to be sweating a little bit more or had a sheen. He wasn't at every team meeting. I know this was something that he and Jim McConnell had discussed and I -- again, at Intel, there's kind of a technical leader and a personnel leader and Jim had the discussions with Tim about work performance and my role would have been to try to make sure we can still get the project done. We did notice those things. I think -- I believe it was likely a result of the stress, so trying to raise the five kids as well as the travel back and forth. You know, I have two kids and a wife that spends a tremendous amount of time taking care of them while I'm at work and I don't know how someone would do five alone.
CASEY SECOR: How about his mood or his demeanor, did that change?
TODD SCHELLING: I think just that kind of one instance I talked about somewhat with the constructive criticism. He was a little bit more aggressive with someone on the phone that was supposed to be providing him some information that he couldn't get. Other than that, I don't recall him having wild mood swings or something noticeable that I felt was out of character.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Did you ever suspect that he was on drugs?
TODD SCHELLING: No, never.
CASEY SECOR: Tell us how you felt when you heard about Tim's arrest.
TODD SCHELLING: I mean, everyone was in shock. It was -- I always get them confused. It was Labor Day weekend and he was out Friday and didn't come back Tuesday. I think it was a couple of days before we had learned what had happened, even though we knew he was missing. I mean, it was unbelievable. It wasn't something that anyone thought that he was capable of or that it would happen. I mean, I remember the day we kind of found out for sure. I tried to carry on kind of in denial. I think I went to go get a haircut. I kind of sat down on the sidewalk and just cried on the phone with my wife. And I remember being -- making a trip over to my church and speaking with my priest for a while. I think everyone was surprised and shocked. I don't think anyone saw anything coming.
CASEY SECOR: How did it feel to sort of look back and not be able to identify any lead up to this?
TODD SCHELLING: From my perspective, I always considered the site here as an extended family. And I didn't have family that lived here in Columbia when I lived here. And a lot of people at work helped me get through some very difficult situations and I was there for a lot of other people when they needed help. And it tears me up that somehow how I thought we were at that site that no one was there. Whatever help might have helped him, I just feel like somehow I let him down.
CASEY SECOR: The whole time you knew Tim, did he ever tell you that he was hearing voices?
CASEY SECOR: Did he ever tell you that he was scared of his kids?
CASEY SECOR: Did he ever tell you about his mother, Cynthia?
CASEY SECOR: Did he ever tell you about any other family members that he had with mental illness?
CASEY SECOR: If he had come to you and genuinely asked you for your help, would you have helped him?
TODD SCHELLING: Absolutely.
CASEY SECOR: May I have just a moment, Your Honor? Thank you, Mr. Schelling. I appreciate it.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAYES:
SUZANNE MAYES: Good afternoon, Mr. Schelling.
TODD SCHELLING: Good afternoon.
SUZANNE MAYES: I'm Suzanne Mayes. You and I have spoken on the phone several times leading up to today?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: Along with Solicitor Hubbard and Deputy Solicitor Graham?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: Mostly about what you just described, your utter shock and belief -- disbelief that he ended up in this situation, correct?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: Because there at Intel, he had been hired as an employee that was expected to achieve a lot of potential, correct?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And you had actually been part of that hiring process there at Intel back in 2011, correct?
TODD SCHELLING: We talked about that on the phone and then later I remember those conversations I had with him weren't at the initial hiring, they were conversations we had later.
SUZANNE MAYES: Soon after the hiring process --
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: -- but somewhere in that range of 2011?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: He was still kind of being brought in and learning the process there at Intel?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And one of the things that you mentioned on direct examination is that up until the summer of 2014, his moods had always been consistent?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: I want to talk a little bit more about that. During that timeframe that he worked there with you, 2011, 2014 -- through 2014, that's a three-year period. You're dealing with him pretty much on a weekly basis?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And during the course of that employment, you were known as the team leader?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And so part of his engineering group, they break out into these small groups and you're the team leader, but it's about problem resolving?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And throughout all those weekly meetings, he was able to interact and control his behavior and control his emotions throughout that process?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: In fact, I think you said you never saw any indication of violence or anger from him during that period of time?
TODD SCHELLING: No violence. There were certainly times when he was going through his divorce that he was agitated, but I wouldn't characterize it as anger.
SUZANNE MAYES: And I think one of the things you said leading up to this was that he was easy to work with, happy and positive?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And you described him as being able to express emotions. I think you said he smiled and laughed a lot?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: Another thing you said is that he would light up when he'd talk about certain things?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: You said he was performing better than anyone there would have expected, including yourself?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, he was a very good performer.
SUZANNE MAYES: And one of the things you noted about him was that his interpersonal skills, his ability to be liked by his peers seemed better than you saw in other team members?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: He did not have a hard time talking to people?
TODD SCHELLING: Correct, yes.
SUZANNE MAYES: You noted that his attitude remained positive throughout that time, leading up to the summer of 2014 and that his outlook was always good?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes.
SUZANNE MAYES: So now we're going to move forward to the summer of 2014 because that's where you note there's some type of change?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: One of the words that came up repeatedly, both in our phone conversations and in the notes of interviews that you did with part of the Defense team was the word, agitated?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: You recall in the summer of 2014, you recall him being agitated now and you had not seen that before?
TODD SCHELLING: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: Another thing you noted in addition to the agitation was sweating. That you would see him in team meetings sometimes and him have sweat across his brow?
TODD SCHELLING: On a few occasions, yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And that stood out to you as unusual because you hadn't seen that before?
TODD SCHELLING: Correct. In hindsight, yeah.
SUZANNE MAYES: And, of course, during that time when you see these symptoms, you're not close enough to him to really smell his clothing or his hair?
TODD SCHELLING: I mean, we would sit right next to each other. It was a small room. There were four of us there. So yeah, I sat very close to him.
SUZANNE MAYES: Do you recall him smelling like smoke?
TODD SCHELLING: On occasion, I do recall him smelling like he had been smoking.
SUZANNE MAYES: At that point in time, you weren't aware that he was using or smoking the drug known as spice, were you?
TODD SCHELLING: No, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: That's not something he disclosed to you, even though you were seeing no sign of that?
TODD SCHELLING: Correct, he did not disclose it.
SUZANNE MAYES: And up until that summer where you noticed the sweating and the agitation in those meetings, there had never been an incident where you felt you needed to alert management because he was harassing other employees or being difficult?
TODD SCHELLING: No, never a time.
SUZANNE MAYES: In fact, he had volunteered with the robotics club at a local high school, correct?
TODD SCHELLING: I don't specifically remember that.
SUZANNE MAYES: But you certainly didn't have any concerns about his interactions with his peers?
SUZANNE MAYES: How close in time -- I know you said the summer of 2014, but how close in time was it up until the murders -- the homicides and killings of the children?
TODD SCHELLING: I'm sorry?
SUZANNE MAYES: The sweating, the agitation?
TODD SCHELLING: I would say probably the last three months or so.
SUZANNE MAYES: Definitely after May 2014.
TODD SCHELLING: Yeah, I think it was in September or August, so definitely after May.
SUZANNE MAYES: And so everything appeared normal other than the sweating and the agitation, and then suddenly, on Tuesday, after Labor Day 2014, he doesn't show back up at work?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: I believe you also had some communications with his direct manager, which would have been Jim McConnell, about exactly where he was, trying to locate him, figure out what's going on?
TODD SCHELLING: Right. So when he didn't come to work on Tuesday -- and I can't remember if we were expecting him to be on vacation Friday or not. I contacted Jim -- we all sit in the same small area. And I contacted Jim and I asked him if he knew where Tim was. I know earlier you had talked about the sweating and the agitation. There were some additional absences leading up to that. So it was completely unusual for Tim to not make it into work, but he was pretty good, at least, letting Jim know that he wasn't going to be there. So I checked in with Jim on Tuesday to find out if he knew that Tim was planning to be in work or he had been out an extra day or two.
SUZANNE MAYES: Okay.
TODD SCHELLING: And then I'm trying to remember. It was several days -- it was Wednesday or Thursday that I think Jim said that there was more going on than Tim being absent, that he was actually missing and there were people looking for him. And then again, I can't remember the exact date we learned about what had happened. I don't know if it was that Friday or the next week.
SUZANNE MAYES: And when you did learn, as you said, it was complete shock and disbelief there at Intel?
TODD SCHELLING: Yes, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: Because there had never been any indication of mental instability, correct?
TODD SCHELLING: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: And there had never been any concerns that you personally had about his mental status, correct?
TODD SCHELLING: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: Nothing further.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Schelling, I think you said when we were talking before that you never suspected that Tim was on drugs, is that right?
TODD SCHELLING: That's right.
CASEY SECOR: And State's list here of side effects from AB Pinaca, does that describe Tim to you in the summer of 2014, that list?
TODD SCHELLING: I can recall him being agitated and the sweating, but I don't recall confusion, paranoia, hallucinations, excited delirium, slurred speech, drowsiness. I mean, I don't know about his heart rate. So a couple of those, but two.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAYES:
SUZANNE MAYES: And, certainly, with the hallucinations, he never reported any hallucinations to you, did he?
TODD SCHELLING: No, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: Or anyone else to your knowledge?
TODD SCHELLING: No, ma'am.
SUZANNE MAYES: And you never saw any indications of that? He wasn't talking to other people --
TODD SCHELLING: No, ma'am. I'm -- yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't see any weird behavior like talking to no one or swatting at things that were invisible.
SUZANNE MAYES: Right. When you're having a team meeting, he's not talking to people who aren't there --
SUZANNE MAYES: -- correct?
TODD SCHELLING: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: Thank you. Nothing further, Mr. Schelling.
THE COURT: You may step down.
TODD SCHELLING: Thank you.
THE COURT: Who's up next?
CASEY SECOR: One more if you'd like to continue?
THE COURT: Sure. If you have one more that won't be too long.
CASEY SECOR: Defense calls Jaimeet Aneja.