9.Brice Mankowski — Direct/Cross
126 linesBRICE MANKOWSKI, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: If you'll have a seat over here, please. If you'll state your name and spell your last for the record.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: My name is Brice Mankowski, last name, M-A-N-K-O-W-S-K-I.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Mr. Mankowski, tell us how you know Tim.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I know Tim because I worked with him for probably about two and a half years at Intel.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: On his team. Me, Tim Jones, and John Querry were all working under Todd Schelling -- or Todd Schelling was the tech lead for us. We all worked under Jim McConnell.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. So what was the timeframe you worked with Tim?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: From the time that I -- well, about three months after I started working at Intel, I switched teams onto a team with Tim and worked with him until -- directly on his team until the day that he went missing.
CASEY SECOR: When you were working with Tim, what did you know about his own personal family?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I knew that he had a wife. I knew that he had five children. But I had never met any of them. I didn't know anything much outside of that.
CASEY SECOR: Did you know where Tim lived?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I had no idea where he lived.
CASEY SECOR: Did you ever socialize with Tim?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: The only socialization I did with Tim was within the confines of the Intel building itself. I never socialized with him outside of it.
CASEY SECOR: Did he ever talk to you about his family, meaning older generation? Did he tell you about his mother ever?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, he had never told me about his family.
CASEY SECOR: Did he ever tell you about hearing voices?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, definitely not.
CASEY SECOR: Did he ever tell you that he was scared of his children?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Definitely not, no.
CASEY SECOR: In terms of his behavior at Intel, did you get the sense that he had a hard time talking with people?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, quite the opposite. Most, I would say -- not most, but a lot of engineers tend to be more shy, more antisocial. And Tim was unique in that he was able to come up to anyone and just start a conversation and talk to them about anything. So that was -- especially for me, I'm also kind of a shy, introverted person. Tim's behavior in that regard as an engineer was very unique.
CASEY SECOR: Did he have any friends?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Not that I knew of. Inside -- inside work, he generally seemed to keep to himself. He would talk to everyone about work related items, but he didn't seem to hang out with anyone in particular. The only exception I guess might be Kevin McKinney.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. What would you usually do for lunch with your friends at Intel?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: So usually at lunchtime, me and my friends would get together and we'd -- we would always have to leave the building because Intel doesn't have a cafe at the South Carolina site. And so we'd leave and we'd go play cards together, a game called Big Two. Usually, it would be anywhere from three to maybe eight people that would get together to enjoy each other's company and enjoy lunch together. And in that time, Tim was probably given the opportunity to, but I had never seen him join the group at all.
CASEY SECOR: How would you describe his sort of normal everyday state of mind in comparison to other people that you worked with?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: In general, he had a pretty intense personality. If he had a belief about something, he would let you know and if there was any disagreement in that, he would try and make sure that you -- by the end of the conversation you agreed with him. So just very, very intense personality.
CASEY SECOR: Could he be difficult to deal with sometimes?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: At times. There was one particular incident, probably -- it was definitely in the summer of 2014, not too long before the incident happened -- well, the killing of his kids happened, where I went into the lab at Intel and noticed that one of my fellow coworkers was talking with Tim. And Tim was very -- seemed very agitated, very amped up, very intense, talking very fast. And so I walked up to see what was going on. And in that time, as soon as the person -- the other employee noticed that I was there and Tim had someone else to talk to or someone else to focus their energy on, that other employee left immediately. Basically, they appeared afraid for themselves or they just didn't want to be in that situation at all. And I came in and was talking to Tim then, or, rather, listening to him because he was just kind of nonstop talking very intensely. And it was almost like a situation where you're with someone who's drank way too much. If you say the wrong thing to them, they might get triggered, they might get angry at you. He wasn't aggressive in any way, it's just that he was very -- he was at the point where he could -- it seemed like he could become aggressive at any point. So I tried just listening to him and trying to talk him down, trying to get my bearings as to why he might be in this odd state of mind. So this was a very unusual situation that happened, kind of, a few months before the incident, I think.
CASEY SECOR: Did you feel physically threatened at that time?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, I never felt physically threatened at the time.
CASEY SECOR: Did you feel like it could have gotten to that point if something --
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Had I been more confrontational or had I disagreed with him in any way, I could easily have seen him becoming violent or not being able to control how he felt at that time.
CASEY SECOR: And at that time, was it clear to you what was agitating him or did you not know?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I mean, I walked into the lab. The lab was very noisy. I hadn't -- I had no idea what Tim or the fellow coworker were talking about, so I was kind of walking into completely blank, right.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Now, I want to back up from that point a little bit, if you don't mind, and just go to -- talk more about the summer of 2014, but before that incident that you talked about. What did you notice about -- what did you notice that changed about Tim in that summer?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: So before the incident, Tim was always -- had always seemed to come to work earlier than me. I came in usually around 9:00. He was also there before me. And he always left earlier. And I believe that was because he had children to take care of. Me, as a single guy without any kids, I had no idea what he was going through or what he was doing. But then as time progressed, around the summer of 2014, there were incidents where he would show up tardy. Instead of showing up before me, he would show up at 11:00. Sometimes he would miss one of our meetings, one of our team meetings. And we would all kind of look at each other and be like, where is Tim? It's very unusual for him to not be here. And then that kind of slowly over time, over the next couple of months progressed into not just tardiness, but absences that were first put on our work calendar.
So whenever someone leaves work or knows that they're going to be off from work, whether they have a vacation or anything else like that, they would -- or have a dentist appointment, they would put that on our kind of global calendar so everyone else gets an email immediately when they send out the notice. So everyone on his team would know when he's going to be out. So his unexplained absences for team meetings was highly unusual. And as I mentioned, it kind of progressed. It went from him telling us he was going to be tardy or he was going to be out for a day to some days, he would just go missing and there was no notice of that. And that kind of -- at first, you know, he was tardy and then it was days missing and then it was -- then it was a day missing and then it was multiple days missing. So it was very -- very strange that there was a progression of his behavior getting more and more erratic. And there was never an explanation within our team as to what might be going on with him. And I always figured that our team lead or manager would have known more about what was going on. And it's not my business to really ask what was happening there.
CASEY SECOR: Were the days that he missed comparable to the days that other people missed in terms of numbers?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, not at all. Like, me and many of my fellow workers, we try and not miss a single day of work, but because of sickness. But Tim would have sick days all over the place. He would have a vacation in there. So we were technically given an allotment of 15 days of vacation days and as much sick leave as you want. Most of us, I would say, hardly used sick leave unless it was very serious. Tim seemed to take day after day. Like, at least, every two weeks during that timeframe, he seemed to be sick.
CASEY SECOR: And I want to go back just a little bit further if we can to before you started noticing these changes in his coming to work. And just tell us about your -- Tim's opinions about things and your impression of his opinions about things when you talked to him.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: So Tim was a very, I guess, I would say, a hard-headed person. If he had an opinion about something, he definitely wanted you to know about it. And if you're any different from him, you'd be having an argument about it for sure. There was one incident -- in general, you could never convince him of anything. He already had -- was stuck in his ways and he knew what he believed. Nothing you could say could change that. There was one incident in general that I remember where me and him were discussing a competitor's server chip versus our server chip. And he was like, oh, this competitor is going to absolutely crush us. And I looked at the data and was like, no, it's nowhere comparable to it. I don't understand where you're coming from with this. This makes no sense. How are you coming to this conclusion? And at the time, he just -- there's no way you could convince him otherwise. He had made up his mind that this other competitor's chip was going to destroy us. And then about two weeks later, it was very surprising to me, he came to my cube and he was like, yeah, man, I think you're right. That competitor's chip is not going to be a problem. And that was the first time I'd ever seen him be convinced by someone else or by me about an argument. Only time it ever happened with my two and a half years with being with Tim.
CASEY SECOR: When he had a really strong belief, was it -- was it a -- was it a belief that was rational always?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, definitely not. I mean, it was hard for him to connect the dots in a logical manner sometimes. Once he reached a -- once he had a conclusion, it didn't matter what logical connections could be made to get there, he would find a way to try and connect them. So, in general, it was an irrational way of thinking.
CASEY SECOR: And could he be swayed by a reasonable argument from you?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Except for that one instance, no.
CASEY SECOR: When he had -- when he took these irrational positions, was he mean about it?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No. Tim was never mean about his positions. He was very opinionated, but he never would verbally assault anyone in that manner. It was all very -- as an engineer, you debate. And that's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that.
CASEY SECOR: May I have just a moment, Your Honor. Thank you, Mr. Mankowski. I appreciate it.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAYES:
SUZANNE MAYES: Good afternoon, Mr. Mankowski.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Hello.
SUZANNE MAYES: Just a few questions to follow-up on that. I believe you just said just seconds ago, as an engineer, you debate?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Yes, that's correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: And, specifically, you were talking about having a position on something that maybe not everyone agrees with?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: True.
SUZANNE MAYES: And you gave us an example of a time that he finally admitted that he was wrong about something?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: That's correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: And I believe you had made some previous statements just in interviews you did leading up to this trial that that's the only time you can ever remember him admitting he was wrong about something?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: That is correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: But when you talk about as an engineer, you debate, when you said before that there were things that you didn't agree on, is that what it is? Is it about work-related solutions or is it about religion, is it about women? If you could elaborate just a little bit more on that.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: So I never discussed religion with Tim. It was usually about work-related things. I guess, sometimes it might have been financial-related things. He's very interested in finances and getting ahead in the world. I don't think it was ever about women either.
SUZANNE MAYES: All right. So I just wanted to clarify that a little bit more so we'd know what it is you're talking about when you say that if he had a position, he wouldn't want to change it. Based on what you just said, it's almost always going to be work-related, other than sometimes it was about financial issues?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Agreed, yes.
SUZANNE MAYES: And with that, I'll just come out and say it, he was known around Intel as being cheap, right? Didn't want to spend a lot of money?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I actually didn't know that because I'm a very cheap person. As engineers --
SUZANNE MAYES: Many of us are.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: As engineers, a lot of us are very cheap. So I have actually no idea. That's news to me.
SUZANNE MAYES: All right. So can you elaborate a little bit more when you say that there was a financial debate between the two of you?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Sure. I don't know if it was a debate. It was more I got the notion from our talks in the halls of Intel that he was very interested in wanting -- he talked about going to medical school. I figured that was because of money. Two, he was always interested in the stock market. He wanted to find a way to make money so he wouldn't have to work anymore. I don't know if those were debates at those times. It was more just he was talking about what he was interested in.
SUZANNE MAYES: All right. So just positions he had that he would share with you. And one of those would be, ultimately, to have a job where maybe he wouldn't have to show up everyday and he would be financially enough to not have to work a 9:00 to 5:00 job?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I think a lot of people dream of that, yeah.
SUZANNE MAYES: So I want to talk a little bit more about what you said regarding how you recall him initially, that he could have a conversation with anyone. I think that's the way you put it earlier?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: What's the question?
SUZANNE MAYES: That he would just come up to anyone and talk about anything, at least, initially?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I don't follow the question.
SUZANNE MAYES: So how long did you know him at Intel? He began there in 2011. Were you already there?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, he started in the summer of 2011 and I came in in October. So he was there a couple months before me.
SUZANNE MAYES: So when you first met him initially, I think the way you described him was that he would just come up and talk to anybody about anything. He wasn't introverted?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Agreed, yeah.
SUZANNE MAYES: And then eventually, I think towards the end of your testimony on direct examination, you mentioned that you did see a change over the course of the summer. And that would be the summer of 2014?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: I just want to ask you a little bit more about that. So from October of 2011 through early 2014, you remember him being less introverted, I think you said than yourself, but a lot of other engineers there, correct?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: True.
SUZANNE MAYES: And then by the summer of 2014 -- and I think one of your previous statements was that you actually noticed it over the course of that summer, leading up ultimately to his arrest in August. Do you recall that, making the statement that I only started to see it within the last two months, when his attendance started to shift and wax and wane?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Right, right.
SUZANNE MAYES: All right. So we're talking then about the last two months, basically, that you noticed that change that you described earlier?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Two months is approximate. It's going to be the summer of 2014.
SUZANNE MAYES: Right.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: More or less, yes.
SUZANNE MAYES: And where, ordinarily, you'd have these team meetings -- and they're weekly meetings, right?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: At least, weekly, if not more than that.
SUZANNE MAYES: And team members are supposed to be there, they're supposed to interact, engage with one another, all those things?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Somewhat, yeah. I mean, a lot of that was actually led by the team lead. The team lead would kind of describe where everyone was at and where we're going. And then if there's specific issues that we have, we would bring them up and talk about where we're at with those issues.
SUZANNE MAYES: And for you guys, the team lead was Todd Schelling?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: That's correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: So you have these weekly meetings and everything appeared all -- appeared to be normal with the Defendant until you get to the summer of 2014?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: And now he's not showing up on time or he just doesn't show up at all, right?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: Did you know at the time that he was using the drug AB Pinnaca?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: I had no idea.
SUZANNE MAYES: He never spoke to you that he was using spice?
SUZANNE MAYES: And when you have these team meetings, there was never a situation where he had some violent outbursts during that team meeting, was there?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, definitely not.
SUZANNE MAYES: There was never a time that he couldn't control his emotions and you had to call human resources or bring in management, correct?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: No, of course not.
SUZANNE MAYES: So he could always control his emotions in those team meetings?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: In the team meetings, yes.
SUZANNE MAYES: And that one instance that you spoke of where you saw him having a conversation with somebody, and I think you said he was speaking very rapidly, that was also in those last few months, wasn't it?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: That's correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: When you didn't know he was taking spice?
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Correct.
SUZANNE MAYES: Nothing further.
CASEY SECOR: Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down.
BRICE MANKOWSKI: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. We're due for a break. Step in the jury room. We'll be back out here in a few. Don't talk about the case. (WHEREUPON, the jury is excused from open court for a break.)
THE COURT: All right. Stand down for a few minutes.
(Whereupon, a short break was taken.)
THE COURT: Bring the jury in. (Whereupon, the jury came into open court at approximately 4:20 p.m.)
THE COURT: Call your witness.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir. Defense calls Todd Schelling.