4.Counselor Testimony Admissibility Hearing Continues
29 linesRICK HUBBARD: Have we made a decision on the counselor?
THE COURT: I didn't know I was making a decision.
RICK HUBBARD: Are y'all calling the counselor now?
BOYD YOUNG: Yes.
RICK HUBBARD: I just didn't want to deal with--
THE COURT: I know, I wish y'all had said that. I didn't know y'all were waiting on me, I thought y'all were going to resolve it. I have been sitting back there for thirty minutes doing nothing.
RICK HUBBARD: Judge, I can say this. We contacted Mr. Harpootlian, he objects and said he was going to email you with his objection.
THE COURT: He did and I haven't read that. My computer has been sitting out here.
RICK HUBBARD: That is where we are and then relevance on top of that.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Young, tell me again. This is the counselor for the children and she's being called for the purpose of what?
BOYD YOUNG: She's being called to testify as to her sessions with the children and to Mr. Jones belief that Amber Jones had abandoned the kids and his abandonment issues are our theory of defense and that he was abandoned by his mother. He had a lot of issues with that. Due to his mental illness at the time, he thought the children would be better in heaven and that's why he killed them.
THE COURT: All right.
BOYD YOUNG: And that's our theory of defense which was laid out in a number of expert reports.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Hubbard.
RICK HUBBARD: Yes sir, Your Honor. Your Honor, they don't need this counselor for that. If they're talking about Tim Jones' issues, they've put up his counselor. She's already testified to that. What they would be going into are statements from the kids, just two of the kids to the counselor, which we believe, because of looking at the notes, are things that Tim Jones told these kids repeatedly, your mom doesn't want you, and they're expressing that --
BOYD YOUNG: Judge --
THE COURT: Wait a minute, let him finish.
RICK HUBBARD: I see absolutely no relevance whatsoever in putting the children's counselor up. They've already put Tim Jones up. He's already established that he didn't think Amber wanted the kids. I understand they want to say that they thought the kids -- he thought the kids at some point wanted to get back with Amber. But Judge, this isn't how you do it. They're putting up the counselor who talks with the kids. If they're concerned about what Tim Jones is thinking, that's not this counselor. And we think it opens the door to hearsay of these little kids. It's completely irrelevant to show what they want to show. But more importantly, we believe there is a statutory protection. And that's why we notified Mr. Harpootlian and Your Honor and we are informed that Amber Jones objects. So it's two-fold, the objection is one, for her; and number two, it's just absolutely not relevant.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Young, what else?
BOYD YOUNG: Your Honor, the testimony of Kimberly Fender is relevant to rebut the State's attempt to portray Mr. Jones as intentionally keeping Ms. Kyzer from the children. If the children told Ms. Fender they felt abandoned or unloved or unwanted or they didn't have a mother, then it would be relevant to rebut the State's evidence to the contrary. Your Honor, Mr. Jones signed a release for these records. Mr. Jones -- I know that Solicitor Harpootlian's email was -- Senator Harpootlian's email was that Ms. Jones was -- Ms. Kyzer was the personal representative and Mr. Jones signed the release allowing Ms. Kyzer to be the personal representative. He has an absolute right to present this testimony. It's part of our defense. According to our defense, it's his belief that the children had been abandoned by Ms. Kyzer, which is the sole basis for doing what he felt was the moral and right thing at the time due to a mental disease or defect. That's our whole defense. This evidence corroborates our defense. The State has elicited statements from the children to babysitters about Ms. Kyzer. The State has tried to get -- ask Ms. Kyzer to read letters that she had written to the children after they had been to the counselor apologizing for the behavior that they complained to the counselor about. And those statements are already in evidence.
THE COURT: What records do you want in? Why have the records become a problem? Because it didn't look like there were very many records other than -- why do you need those?
BOYD YOUNG: Why do I ask her about those?
THE COURT: I thought you were trying to introduce those. That's what the State objected to.
BOYD YOUNG: I'm just trying to ask her about them. I'm not trying to put them in.
RICK HUBBARD: We object to her testimony. And as far as the letters from Amber and all that, they put all that in, Judge. All we did is ask Amber about what she wrote. It was a Defense Exhibit. They're the ones pursuing this line. We were responding to what they were doing. Right now, though, we've gone beyond Tim Jones, now, we're focusing on the kids and what they were thinking. And, Judge, it's just an easily manipulated environment. Ultimately, it is completely hearsay because you have a Defendant bringing his children to a therapist. He's saying here's the situation. It's completely one-sided. Amber is cut out of this. It's self-serving. And, Judge, overall, it's irrelevant what they're saying to their therapist. He's put up his therapist, his thoughts, his fears, his concerns. That's good right there.
BOYD YOUNG: He wasn't even in the room when the therapist -- the therapist met with Tim and then met with the kids. These are the statements to the therapist from the children about what they were going through. He took them to therapy because they were having issues and struggling with the management issues after a contested divorce.
RICK HUBBARD: That's already in. Dr. Hames said she referred him to a therapist for the kids. She even saw them in the lobby. She said he looked like a good father there in the lobby. You remember all that. It's absolutely irrelevant what kids are saying to a therapist, particularly if he's not there. It's just absolutely irrelevant and hearsay. And again, there is an objection from the personal representative.
THE COURT: All right. Be seated. I want to hear some of her testimony. I still don't understand how it's relative to your defense. So call her up and let's present some of it.
BOYD YOUNG: The Defense calls Kimberly Fender.