1.Charlie Crumpton — Direct/Cross (Part 1)

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Okay. My name is Charlie Crumpton. Spelling C-r-u-m-p-t-o-n.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: In Smith County, Mississippi.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Soon to be 24 years.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: For about 24 years.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I do, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I had two uncles that were sheriff prior to me being sheriff.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I do, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I was not. Was that on a Saturday?

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I was out of town with my family. Sure was.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Early. Yes, sir. I was notified that night and I was here early the next morning, which was on a Sunday.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Probably close to 20 hours. Close to that.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We did.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We had Tim Jones, Sr. was also with us.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: The Defendant's father.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. That was unusual for us to do that. We actually never done that before.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Well, you know, we already realized that there was a major problem because, you know, some -- some samples in the car had proven to be blood at that time. And we were hoping for the -- sort of hoping for the best. We didn't know. We were just judging by what was found in the car and that there was -- you know, there was probably a problem. And the father was very, very concerned, as any father would be, and as a grandfather he was certainly concerned, and --

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: He was concerned for the five children.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That was very much our -- our concern. That was, that was, that was very much our concern. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Certainly not. Certainly not. That was the most cooperative man I've ever dealt with. The most -- that man was -- he went through a lot. He sure did. But no, sir. He was very cooperative and -- and at that time, sir, we hoping for the best. We had reason to think possibly that at least four of the children might be alive at that time. Possibly five, but certainly four of them might be.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We did not know.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: My job as a law enforcement officer was to find those children. That was my main objective.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. Not at that time.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Lieutenant Eric Johnson.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. It's kind of unusual. I don't know whether he was trying to show me his intelligence or -- or I didn't, I never seen it done. He actually got the paper from Mr. Johnson and read the Miranda himself.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. He -- he actually grabbed it out of his hand.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. He read it out loud and then took a pen and scribbled, I supposed, what would be a name. And after that, a few minutes later Officer Johnson did read them again to him. But the first time he read, he read them himself.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Actually, I've been in this for a long time. I saw a man like I've never seen before. Never seen anyone what I believed to be strung out, high, whatever words you want to use. I never seen one in quite that condition. I'm sure he was, he would go from screaming, back down to crying, to yelling, to very just odd, odd behavior. He was, and at my time, it was a tough jail. It was an old, old jail. And that day it was, it was extremely hot, but we were in a 65 to 68 degree Court House at this time, which to me ought to be shivering after coming out of that hot jail, but this man was sweating unbelievable.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: The whole time. I've never seen that. Sure haven't.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. That was relatively -- we dealt with a lot of methamphetamine, a lot of crack cocaine, you know, in the past, but I'd never dealt with a whole lot of spice. I sure hadn't. I sure hadn't. I didn't know a whole lot about the -- I knew this was something different.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I have. I have.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Very similar. That's kind of the way we knew what we were dealing with on the next several that -- that we had gotten for possession of spice and being high on spice. That's kind of the way we -- we realized that that's what they were doing. It's just different.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. They had those characteristics.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: One extreme to the other.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. I would say he could.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I understand that. Right.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Right.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I believe he did.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. He participated in -- he was a lot of help to me, because at that time we, you know, I didn't know whether these children may even be in our county in Mississippi. We just, we didn't know. And so, like I said, our concern was for the children. And Mr. Jones, Sr.'s concern was certainly for those children. But yes, sir. He was a lot of help.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I think he's the middle one. It was kind of odd. I called him -- I just mispronounced his name. I thought it was Nathan, and he got very emotional, very angry with me, screamed that that was not his name. His name was Nahtahn. It was just something about that name that triggered him.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. Several times.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Well, every time that particular child's name come up it was a burst of anger. He just became like a different person when that particular name would come up.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. He did not.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Well, again, from the car search and what I was hearing, I knew something had happened to some of the children. I didn't know it had happened to all of them, but from the search and from what we were gathering in that interview, he had definitely done something to some of the children, at that point in the interview. Early in the interview we realized that, you know, something had happened to at least part of the children.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. Just from my observing him and from my interview and the anger and my opinion that he showed toward Nahtahn, I was assuming it might be -- what they found in the car might possibly been Nahtahn's and not any of the rest of them possibly, because there was just an anger there toward that one particular child.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. We were -- we had been in constant contact with South Carolina authorities and he told us that the, in that interview that he had put the children out. I think his community is Red Bank where he lived. I believe it was Red Bank. That he had put him out between his house and a Walmart, which I suppose there's a Walmart there. I don't know. But we got in touch with South Carolina authorities and they -- they did a diligent search. They searched every road, every trail. Apparently this is a mobile home community out there, but they, they did. They searched everywhere, and they were convinced that the children were not there where they were saying. He even told us that he put them out on the side of the road, and then later they interviewed him, he actually said he pushed them out of the car rolling.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: While the car was moving. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I did. Like I say, his father was -- I can't express that enough. His father was a concerned father and grandfather, not only for the grandchildren, and also concerned for his son. Which I've got children. I know how that -- I hope I never know how that severe opinion would be. But I know he had feelings towards his family. And he asked him, "Son --" I believe the words are -- I'm not a note keeper, now. He said, "Son, did you hurt the children," and he jumped up. He was sitting at a table. The father was sitting at a couch at the end of that table, which would be on the west side of that table in the courtroom. Not the courtroom but actually the lounge up in the floor of the Court House. He got up, went over there and grabbed his father and just said, he grabbed him by the throat. Never squeezed him. Because I -- I had already gone up, because it's a two-story. You know, it's an old Court House. And I actually went over and was sitting in the window, which is a chair right there at the window, which is where I normally sit during -- when we got court going and breaks, that's where I always go to anyway. But I was there because I didn't know what the man might -- Jr. might would try to go out the window or whatever. So I had just, didn't make any emotions about it. I just eased over there and that's where I was sitting. But he got the father, and I think he said -- I believe he said -- the father asked him had he hurt them and he said yes, and then he grabbed him and said no. And that was a sign to me. Again, that was my impression of it, that he was basically showing what he had done to some of the children. That's the way I -- that's the way I read that anyway.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. Not to my knowledge. I don't remember that he did. No, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: He was.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: South Carolina and one of their investigators there, Adam Creech, David Mackey, FBI through the Columbia office, I believe, is where he's out of here, myself and Lieutenant Eric Johnson.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I was in and out as an observer, because that's, you know, from what I knew, the children were missing from this state. At that time we didn't, they were the lead agency in that part.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I guess you could say a totally different person. Totally different person.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: None of that.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Did he ask that question?

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: He did.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. Yeah, I was in there for that -- that particular part of it. I was in there when that happened.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I'm sure we did. Like I say, I was in and out of there. But I'm sure that -- well, we had to have his assistance to find the children, if he would cooperate. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Talking about Tuesday now probably, I remember better the day than I do the dates.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Tuesday. Okay.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. We went, we went, midday we left out, a little after noon, I believe, actually when we left out.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. He had told us a location pretty close to -- I've never been in that part of Alabama. I actually thought we were going just south of Meridian, Mississippi is the way I was kind of reading it, but we were a long way from Meridian, Mississippi. We sure were. But we were -- we were in rought to Alabama.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We were probably in route -- probably somewhere around three hours it took us to get there. The best I can remember I -- my odometer showed, I believe, 179 miles by the time I left the jail to the time I got there, to the best of my knowledge. That's what I remember. I think it was 179 miles.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. We had, I believe, Eric Johnson and one of his agents from MBI were leading. I had one of my investigators and another deputy, and Officer Creech here with South Carolina was in the backseat of that car. And the suspect was in the backseat of that car as well. And I believe myself and Undersheriff Marty Patterson followed. And I believe some -- maybe a SLED officer may have followed with a -- I believe Major Mackey was with him, I believe. Now, there was four or five vehicles of us. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We were probably in excess of 100 miles an hour all the way there. And the purpose for that was we were trying to -- we were trying to save as much daylight as we could. I know when we got to the Alabama line the Alabama authorities did a great job. They had every road -- it was either I-Highway 19 or I-Highway 39. I can't remember. They run together right in there. But it turned into Alabama 10, and he -- the sheriff from that particular adjoining county that joined Mississippi, he had every road blocked in that county. I don't know how many counties we went into Alabama, but they did a great job of getting us there. But our purpose for that was to try to beat darkness. Even though we -- we had daylight, but we didn't know what we were going to find. How many searches we were going to have to do. We were just trying to beat darkness.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Very rural. I'm from a rural area. We were from -- we were halfway between Laurel, Mississippi and Jackson, Mississippi. We were in a rural area. And, but this was a very rural area. A lot of -- lot of timber industry there.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, we didn't stop anywhere. We made one -- like I say, everything over there looked a lot alike. It was -- it's a lot of heavy pine plantation type timber over there. And we made -- we had radio contact with our deputy and he said that, "We think we're at the spot," I believe is the way he put it. He said, "Smith One, we think we're here at the location." So he said, "You all just hold right here for a minute," and we did. And they went up the road to our left, which would be -- we were heading east on Alabama 10. It's that road veered off to the left at an angle, which would be heading, I guess you would say, northeast. And when I tell you all a road, I'm talking about not a -- I'm talking about a log road, which is where a bulldozer lays a road in, made a loading ramp for logs. That's the kind of roads we're talking about when we speak to you about the roads. This is -- this is just a red dirt, red dirt area, red dust. It's not a road. But the first one was not the right place.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Just a second. Tim Jones, Jr. told -- he said this is not it. This is not it. And I was not in the car, but that's what my officer said. I'm just telling you what he said. But he radioed to us that it was not the right place. And we got back in the convoy, you want to call it. And we headed back in an easterly direction again going toward, toward Camden, Alabama, I believe is one of the towns over there. Camden, and then there was a Greenville. We were heading in that direction.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We did. I can't tell you how far that was. All I know is it was a matter of minutes. But again, we were -- we were making good time. But it wasn't far and he radioed and said that they were turning again and felt sure this was the spot, so we all turned into this spot.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We turned left again. The road looked just like that one. Like I say, this is -- this is just a logging community apparently. A lot of pine timber there. But the road was, you know, I could see why it looked like the other road, because it did look like the other road.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. It's a -- it's a two-lane state highway.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We were in the country. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I do. I do.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I do.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That's -- that's a lot closer than the first one. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: It's still aerial. Yes, sir. But that's --

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That is. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That's Alabama 10, to the best of my knowledge. Alabama 10. Like I say, it's the first time I'd ever been on that road. It was Alabama 10.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: It is. It is.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: A very rural area. Like I said, a lot of -- lot of timber industry there.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We were from the right-hand heading -- we were on the west side, which would be the right-hand side. And we were heading east, which would be going to our left -- or your left on that picture.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That's Alabama 10.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That is going to be the aerial photo of where the bodies were found.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I've got one. I don't know how much I'll shake doing it, but I'll try. Right here, if I'm not mistaken, ladies and gentlemen, is the road that we turned off. And about where I'm sitting here shaking that mark is about where we parked our cars. But now, this looks a lot different on this picture than it did at that time, because to the best of my knowledge that's -- we actually -- we went up that road to our left and we parked the cars at the first loading ramp, we call it. I'm -- my family logged, too, at one time, so loading ramps we called them. First loading ramp, and we parked the cars there, the deputy told us this was the spot. And so, we got out of the vehicles. Like I say, there's -- Alabama authorities were there in force because we knew the area was close but we didn't know where. So right after we pulled in there, there was a lot of -- lot of law enforcement there. But before they got there, we did confirm what we confirmed before, called them into that spot because we didn't know whether we were going to move again or not.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We parked and we walked probably 50 or 60 yards up a small incline and --

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: I would say right in that area right there is the best I remember. It's what, you want me to describe what we saw? Is that what you want me to --

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We got there. I actually had gone over the hill, because I was going by scent. The scent was very strong and I was going by scent. And I actually was going down a hill because this, I don't know who was with me. We were actually following what we were smelling. But that smell had gone down a holler. Just drifted that way. And so, one of the deputies hollered at me and told me to come back up there. And so, we came back up there and which I was only -- I'd say another 50 yards past that. Log roads are everywhere in the woods, you know. Skidder trails where they'd been dragging the timber. And so, we went over there and looked and he hollered, "They're over there." I heard that much. But again, I wasn't sure what over there was, but he was cuffed and shackled. But he led us to where the bodies were in plastic bags.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. He didn't -- he didn't walk up to them. No, sir. They were in -- I don't know whether they had a lemon gate there, we call them, which was where a skidder gets sometime 15 to 20, depending on how big the timber is, they get 15, 20 trees. And they'll pull up and they'll back through a lemon gate which is, it breaks the limbs off the logs, even with the log. And then they put them through a slash saw and cut the very tip of them off. That's they way they do it at home and I'm assuming they do it that way there. And these were in those piles, because once the pile gets full the skidder would grab those tops and just would put them in a pile. And that's what it looked to me like. They was on in those, those dead timber tops. That's where the bodies were.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: They were in bags, but one of them -- one of them was exposed somewhat that I saw. Sure was.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. Very strong.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: We did. We felt sure we were at the right spot.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Well, we walked up a hill but then we went over a, they were not way down but they were, we were actually on a knoll of a hill looking somewhat down another 20, 25 yards. I would say no further than that.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir. There was -- I think there was a house, the best I remember. I think the name of the community, best I remember, I may be wrong. Was it Pine Apple? I think I'm right. But that was the only house that I could see from where we were.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: No, sir. None whatsoever.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: This was probably, I'm guessing 4:00 o'clock or 4:30, maybe 5:00. Like I say, we left Raleigh, Mississippi at, I think, 12:30. We stopped at Forest, Mississippi, which is right on Interstate 20, and got Tim, Jr. something to eat. He hadn't had anything to eat. Of course, we had not either, but we never got out of the car. We just went through and we all ate on the way. And that was -- that would have been -- we would have been at Forest, Mississippi by 1:00 o'clock. So I would say we were there 3:30, 4:00 o'clock. At least 4:00 o'clock we were there.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Well, he was in my custody, and for his safety, I didn't know who all was pulling in. I didn't know if neighbors were coming. I didn't know. I knew that community pretty much by that time knew what we were doing over there. And he was mine to protect while I have him in my custody. That's part of the Sheriff's job. And so, I told my men to, we were out, 10 to 15 minutes, no longer, was he out. He was pretty emotional at times and I told him to go ahead and get him back in the car and let's get back to Smith County. And we left also because, you know, that was not my county, it was not my State. We just did our part, what we could do to help, and we came on back with him to Smith County.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Okay, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Yes, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: Good morning, sir.

CHARLIE CRUMPTON: That's correct. I had not even laid eyes on him until they brought him up to the Court House. I didn't go back to the jail.