12.Deborah Grey — Proffer Outside Jury

DEBORAH GREY: Deborah T. Grey, G-R-E-Y.

DEBORAH GREY: D-E-B-O-R-A-H.

DEBORAH GREY: I went to Wake Forest University and attended graduate school there, as well, graduating in 1973. I then went to work for the Department of Social Services, where I worked for a total of nine years doing adult protective services and children and family counseling with kids who had been abused and neglected and adjudicated. I then went to graduate school in the middle of that and continued at Social Services before I went to work at a psychiatric hospital where I worked with adolescents near families. Ultimately, I ended up in more of a managerial position there, but I continued to do work with adults primarily. I went into private practice with a group of psychiatrists in about 1982 and I stayed there until about four or five years ago. I saw, primarily, individuals with mood disorders. I did initial assessments for the physicians who would then see the patients and often, prescribe medications. I also did treatment. I saw, probably, 35 to 45 patients a week during the time that I worked there. About 20 years ago, I started working with -- in the legal system doing complex psychosocial histories on individuals who had been charged with fairly serious crimes. Oftentimes, Capital murder.

DEBORAH GREY: The shorthand for this is a social history. The longhand is biopsychosocial history, which is kind of a mouthful, but what it means is, there's a biological side to that where we are looking at an individual's genetic tendencies. What they may have inherited from their family. We're looking at things like IQ, temperament, medical illnesses, experienced mental illnesses, injuries, head injuries, that sort of thing. On the psychological side of that, we're looking at their cognitive and social and emotional competence and how that has developed overtime. Their ability to concentrate, their ability to problem solve, their ability to regulate their emotions and their ability to create and sustain in depth relationships with people. And, finally, the social side of that is, how are their relationships? How have they related to people overtime? Do they have in depth relationships with people? What sorts of things disturb relationships for this individual? So that's a biopsychosocial history and to do that, I meet with the individual many, many times, I meet with as many of the family members as I possibly can and I review records. And then, I interview other people who've known the client overtime.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. Historically -- when I first started out in social work, they were relied upon primarily by psychiatrists. In the legal world, they're oftentimes relied upon by forensic psychiatrists and forensic psychologists as a basis of their opinion.

DEBORAH GREY: In the psychiatric field, I would say, thousands. In the legal venue, I would say, maybe, 100, 150.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. And I should mention, when I talked about, what do I do to gather this information. In addition to reviewing records on the client, I review records on as many of the family members as I can going back as far as I can--

DEBORAH GREY: -- so that it's an extended process and it's a deep process.

DEBORAH GREY: I did. Yes. They are double sided.

DEBORAH GREY: The pages. And I will say that what I reviewed were electronic documents. Not the paper documents.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct.

DEBORAH GREY: I'd say, probably close to 30.

DEBORAH GREY: I'd have to check. Some of the folks, I interviewed more than once.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. I started off in Mississippi where his family now works. And then, I went up to Syracuse where I interviewed his mother. And then, I went to Austin where I interviewed several fellas from Intel. I went to Chicago on two occasions to interview people that knew him growing up in Chicago and some of the family that's still in Chicago. I went to Toledo and interviewed Pastor Sutton. I went to Alabama and interviewed a neighbor from when he was growing up and I went back to Mississippi and that covers it.

DEBORAH GREY: And -- I did. Yes.

DEBORAH GREY: Biopsychosocial history. I'm a licensed clinical social worker.

DEBORAH GREY: -- history as a licensed clinical social worker.

DEBORAH GREY: It is.

DEBORAH GREY: This is the bare bones. This is as I find out who are all the people in this family and what is their relationship to each other and what year were they born. This is what I start out with and as you can tell in this particular instance, there's some confusion and complexity to it going back a couple of generations. And what Mr. Secor is going to show you is what happens after I've reviewed records, talked to people and put together what the relationships are and what the inner-generational patterns are in those.

DEBORAH GREY: Excuse me. The father's side of the family. This is the mother's side of the family (indicating). So this is our client's mom, Cynthia Jones, and she has an extremely lengthy record. In 1982, battery, she was the victim. 1982, battery, she was the perpetrator. 1985, criminal damage to property and disorderly conduct and I have a lot of diagnoses--

DEBORAH GREY: I can't read it and show it to her at the same time.

DEBORAH GREY: Okay.

DEBORAH GREY: So I heard Ms. Thornsberry testify to how she went to the orphanage when she was about three years old and the story about being left on the Court House steps. And going back to stay with her mother who had married Ted Montane and how Mr. Montane then began to rape her within a day of her coming back to the home at seven or eight years old. And in addition to that, she observed him beat and torture her mother over an extended period of time. He also sexually abused her sisters and by age 11, Ms. Thornsberry was pregnant by Mr. Montane. Her mother knew that and rather than take action on that, her mother threatened to send Ms. Thornsberry away as an undisciplined child if she said or did anything about that. She came out of school in the fifth grade and had this baby. She was listed on the birth certificate as 16 years old, but, in fact -- she was listed on Tim, Sr's., birth certificate as 16 years old, but I have her birth certificate that shows that she was actually 12. So they represented her as 16 at the hospital rather than as being 12.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct.

DEBORAH GREY: Right.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct. She is taken away from her family by Mr. Montane and they are -- as you heard her say, she was on the run with him for a number of years as a young teenager. First, with a baby. And then, she had the second child when she was 14 and the third child when she was 16. At 16 years old, he forced her to marry him, putting 22 years old on the marriage certificate when, in fact, she was 16 and he was 39 years old. He engaged in a variety of abusive behaviors with her that --

DEBORAH GREY: Ms. Thornsberry was born in .

DEBORAH GREY: She was still a teenager. Middle teenager. Fifteen, 16 years old when he forced her into prostitution. Keeping the money, he would take her places to meet with men. One of the things that she reported was that the men he took her to, some of them were actually quite a bit nicer to her than he was. He got wind of that and stopped the prostitution and put her to work in a factory.

DEBORAH GREY: Until she was about 17 years old and I think one of the things, for the purposes of family history, that's significant. She was so young and these children were so young and that they knew absolutely everything that was going on in these small houses or trailers or apartments that they were living in. There were no secrets in this family. Everything was shared. So if she was being beaten, if she was being raped, if they were cursing at each other, all of the children would be aware of that. The other thing is, she was a child herself and there was no way that she could protect her own children from seeing what she was going through. So there was a lack of protection there from her mother to her and from her to her children.

DEBORAH GREY: Roberta reconnected with someone from Hazard, Kentucky, where she had been raised. A man named Larry Thornsberry and Larry was also 17 years old. Roberta was 17 with three small children, a one year old, a three year old and a five year old. Larry had no children, but he knew all about what Roberta had been through because it is a small town and Larry had come from a family with a lot of trauma himself. Larry's dad was in prison for killing two men, Larry's father had molested all of his sisters, fathered a child, I believe, with one of them and had beaten his mother badly. And one of Larry's sister had accidentally killed the other sister while playing with a loaded shotgun. So he was no stranger to trauma and hard times himself and he helped Roberta and the children to escape.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. What I heard from both of them was that they were constantly on the move, that Roberta was always in fear, looking over her shoulder to see if Ted was following them. Tim, Sr., said that he went to probably eight or nine schools. They lived in various places across the country. Tim, Sr., said that life for him was like living in a cesspool. It was violent at home, it was scary at home, but the neighborhoods that they lived in, especially as he got older, had a lot of violence, as well. And so, there was lack of safety, sometimes, going to school where he feared being jumped and beaten to going home when he feared his mom was going to be jumped and beaten.

DEBORAH GREY: From five to about age 12.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. Once Roberta got away from Ted, although she maintained that fear for a number of years, she began drinking. Described it as a self medication to try to make the nightmares go away, to make the fear, to make the anxiety go away. But when she would drink, she would get angry and when she got angry, it was usually at her husband, Larry, and there were a variety of real rampages that would take place in the house when she would get angry and when she would get upset.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. A lot of people with mood disorders have a tendency, especially if there's a family history, to self medicate using alcohol or using something like marijuana. Something that they think will take the edge off without realizing it's actually, potentially, making things worse.

DEBORAH GREY: A man named Phillip Caliendo and I think Tim, Sr., may have talked briefly about an event when she was married to Caliendo and what he told me was, mom would go on these rampages. I would come home from school and every room in the house was destroyed, but Caliendo had money. And so, what Tim, Sr., said -- is it okay to quote the family and their language?

DEBORAH GREY: One of the things that I think is important about using the language that's used in this family is, this language was used around children and it was used around children consistently, day in and day out. So the language I'm using is similar to the language used in the family and Tim, Sr., said of mom's married to Phillip Caliendo, "We went from dirt fucking poor to holy shit rich and back to dirt fucking poor again."

DEBORAH GREY: C-A-L-I-E-N-D-O, Caliendo.

DEBORAH GREY: No. I don't think so. I believe that Roberta was, perhaps, abusive to Caliendo on occasion, as he told Tim, Sr., that Roberta had given him a heart attack and that's why he was in the hospital. I think it was a very combative relationship.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct.

DEBORAH GREY: That was the event that I was describing a second ago --

DEBORAH GREY: -- where Tim, Sr., came home and found the house to be destroyed. It was a house in Oak Grove, Illinois.

DEBORAH GREY: Roberta went back to Larry Thornsberry and a matter of months later, Larry Thornsberry, Jr., was born. So now, the household had Roberta, Larry, Jr., and Tim, Sr., who was 12, a 10 year old and an eight year old.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. Larry Thornsberry, Jr., is the only child by Larry Thornsberry that's not by Ted Montane.

DEBORAH GREY: It did and, again, I have a quote from Tim, Sr., that describes what it was like. He said, "Her drinking was always bad and got worse as she got older. She would take it out on Larry and fuck up the house. She was an adult prospect. My mom believes in this ghost shit. She thought the house was haunted. Mom pulled a gun out, pointed it at everyone and had a hair trigger and she said she was going to kill all of you motherfuckers. She claimed it was the spirits in her, and then busted up the whole house again. They never arrested her. They just let her go home. Our normal life was just constant shit. You never knew what was coming next. You were always alert and always watching to see what would happen. My dad, Larry, tried to do the best that he could with that."

DEBORAH GREY: For the years that they were on the run, he was definitely on their minds. And then, at some point, Roberta became emboldened and let him know that she could hurt him. She went outside his house and fired a gun and I think, at that point, from what I understand, she felt less fearful of him because she felt that she could hurt him if she had to.

DEBORAH GREY: Tim, Sr., has been through a lot at this point and while his main job would be going to school. For all intents and purposes, he appears to have stopped going in about the eighth grade. In the ninth grade, he had about 40 absences -- 50 absences, which is the equivalent of 10 weeks, and only earned two credits for the entire year. Nonetheless, they promoted him to tenth grade where he had 42 absences in the first semester, and then dropped out for lack of interest. So he was about 16 at the time.

DEBORAH GREY: Not to high school. I'm not sure whether he's gotten a GED. I know he's gotten professional training since then.

DEBORAH GREY: That's correct.

DEBORAH GREY: That's right. His role model after that would have been Larry who he is close to, but his model for a relationship was Roberta and Larry's relationship and there was a lot of love there, but there was also a lot of ups and downs and violence.

DEBORAH GREY: The same age. Only about five months different from Roberta.

DEBORAH GREY: Tim, Sr., is . .

DEBORAH GREY: He was about 16 years old.

DEBORAH GREY: About 16, also. She is a few months younger than he is.

DEBORAH GREY: Cynthia was born . So about 10 months after Senior was born and she was the fifth of nine children born to Domingo and Maggie Granada, born initially in Wisconsin and came to Illinois for unknown reasons. What I know about this side of the family comes through her psychiatric records and it comes through family members on the Jones side of the family who have been close to people on the Granada side of the family. With one exception, the people on this side of the family declined to speak with me. So I don't know firsthand, from them, what happened. I do know, from these other sources, some information.

DEBORAH GREY: The sense for what I was told that it was too painful. It was too difficult. They didn't want to go digging back up in their family's secrets and their family history.

DEBORAH GREY: So Cynthia is the fifth of nine and she later reported to her psychiatrist that she was initially sexually abused at age three by a stranger who was staying in the house with the family. But from that time on, she was routinely sexually abused by various adult males that would come in and out of the house. More than that isn't known. She did say, at some point, when they were trying to help her with her indiscriminate sexual behaviors -- someone would say they wanted to have sex with her and she felt like it was rude to say no. And so, her therapist was trying to talk with her about that and she relayed a story from when she was four years old. She said that she used to wonder when she was four, after intercourse, was it rude to roll over, suck your thumb and fall asleep, what did the mommies do.

DEBORAH GREY: They did. Yes. Cynthia's father also was into a form of voodoo called Santeria and what she reported to the Jones family was that he used to lock her in a dark closet with dead chickens bleeding down on her while she was huddled on the floor. She told her psychiatrists that her father kept bottles with preserved fetuses and fingers and dead animals in it, that he had human and animal skulls and that he practiced some sort of rituals with candles and that her mother knew about all of that, didn't agree with it, but her mother didn't protect her or the other children from this. Nor, did her mother protect her from the sexual abuse that she was going through.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. It seemed like -- one of the psychiatrists said that it looked to her like he was back and forth from Texas, staying in town only long enough to get her pregnant again before he would leave and the psychiatrist noted how difficult life must have been for this family with a growing number of children and a dad who was having also a lot of legal problems related to substance abuse at that time.

DEBORAH GREY: What you see on Cynthia's side of the family is, again, the sexual abuse, which means no parent/child boundary, but there's also no protection. She is left unprotected while these things are happening to her. Also, there's a lack of good parenting practices in a family where voodoo is being practiced as is sexual molestation. So she comes into the family with little in the way of parenting practices because of what she's been through and what she has been through is a tremendous amount of trauma.

DEBORAH GREY: My understanding is that, gradually, she just started staying at the Jones house and -- not the Jones house, at that point. The Thornsberry house at that point and that Roberta called her mother and said, your daughter is over here, do you mind, and the mother said, basically, you can have her. She was 16 years old at that point.

DEBORAH GREY: I have.

DEBORAH GREY: Very limited.

DEBORAH GREY: Her remote memory. It's very poor.

DEBORAH GREY: I do.

DEBORAH GREY: What I do is, partly, contained in these notebooks here (indicating). And then, I look for anything in a record that might substantiate or back up what someone is telling me. For example, there was a story that I heard floating around about Timmy, as a baby, being kidnapped by his mother out of the house window and a police report showed up that described exactly that. There were reports about Roberta trying to shoot at Larry. A police report showed up about that and gave contemporaneous descriptions of what these police officers saw happening in this home. So that's one way that I look. In medical records, also, as well, as legal records, but also, when I'm talking to other individuals, I'm looking for people who will volunteer similar information to what I heard from the other person. So if one person tells me about violence in the house, say, when Timmy was growing up, I'd look to see whether other people tell me similar things. If not the same thing, similar things. And then, I also look for information in future records that may retroactively document something that someone told me about. For example, there's something that Tim told me about from when he was younger and there was reference to it in a counseling record 10 years, 15 years, after the fact. So I look for it in records and other corroborating sources.

DEBORAH GREY: Yeah. What I look at is -- in order to have something that's got some stability, you look at what the individual that you're interviewing is telling you. And then, you look at what the other people in the community and their family are telling you. And then, you look at what the records say because the records are usually time specific to whatever certain events may have happened.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct.

DEBORAH GREY: They are -- she's 16 and he's 17 when she gets pregnant and if you backdate her pregnancy from when Tim, Jr., was born, she would have gotten pregnant around March of 1981 and they got married in August of 1981.

DEBORAH GREY: I think they had known each other a matter of weeks before she got pregnant.

DEBORAH GREY: She was 16 years old and there were behaviors going on that struck Roberta as odd, but many 16 year olds are odd. So she didn't quite know what to make of it. She gave us an example. Finding her in the closet crying and saying her father was coming to get her, but there was no father in sight. That she had been charged with looking after little Larry, but little Larry was outside with no clothes on and Cynthia was nowhere to be found and the other thing that she did was stand and stare at herself in the mirror for extended periods of time, but none of the bizarre kinds of behaviors towards other people that subsequently came out later.

DEBORAH GREY: Right.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct.

DEBORAH GREY: These two people came together very young, 16 and 17, bringing this baby into the world and all that they knew were lives of abuse and neglect, abandonment, lack of protection and inappropriate parenting. There was no awareness of appropriate child development. Many of us don't have that at the point that we start having children, but for these folks, it was on the extreme level because every child in their family had been exposed to trauma. Every child had been made a little adult in some ways by being exposed to adult business, adult fights, adult abuse, adult language. So they entered into this parenthood uniquely unprepared and beyond unprepared, they were damaged by what they had been through in life.

DEBORAH GREY: I think Tim, Jr., tried to do that. I think people do try to do it and at that point, their success will probably be based, in part, on their resilience, which can be something that's internal and temperamental. A sturdiness of spirit and it also probably has to do with someone, other person who comes along and takes an interest in that young person and sort of shepherds them or fosters them along. I think one of the other things that I need to mention about these patterns are the issues around attachment in that Roberta did not feel attached to her mother. She felt abandoned by her. She felt neglected by her. She felt unwanted by her. Tim, Sr., I believe felt attachment towards Roberta. She was a child and incapable of doing certain things for him because she was so young. Cynthia also had issues around not being protected and around attachment. So when it comes to what babies do in a healthy mother/child relationship, there hasn't been much experience with that in this family.

DEBORAH GREY: Not every child who is abused grows up to be an abuser. There is a higher percentage of kids who've experienced that who end up being abusive or becoming abusive. So you would be aware of that. What I would look at would be sorts of patterns as something that relates to some studies that have been done recently called The Adverse Childhood Experience studies that has categorized adverse childhood experiences into 10 different categories. And the more adverse experiences that you have in each of those categories, the more likely you are in life to experience social and emotional problems, as well, as employment problems, health problems and ultimately, they had to phase out the study on the older people in the study because those with a higher number of adverse experiences were dying so much younger than the people who had fewer adverse experiences. So these people have all had a very, very high number of adverse experiences in their childhoods, which has affected their mental health, it's affected their physical health and whatever genetic pre-dispositions they may have had to mental illness or to addiction, those kinds of adverse experiences will make it more likely that those pre-dispositions will be expressed.

DEBORAH GREY: It's -- there are 10 items. There are a number of questions, but 10 different areas. Yes.

DEBORAH GREY: That's right. They start looking at, you know, the greater possibility of negative outcome over four and these folks would have well up into the seven, eight, nine and 10, I think.

DEBORAH GREY: Well, it's like, some people, not me, might be able to juggle two balls. And then, some people might learn -- you throw a third one in and they can still keep it going, but once you thrown the fourth one in or the fifth one in or the sixth one in or the seventh one in, very few people can do that and in the adverse childhood area, very few people can juggle that many adverse experiences without it coming out in some form or fashion as they get older.

DEBORAH GREY: Seeing your mother beaten and tortured. Having --

DEBORAH GREY: Yes.

DEBORAH GREY: Okay. Cynthia went on to have two other children. I think that Donald was born in 1990, if I'm remembering correctly, and Donald was born with Cynthia as the mother and another patient where she was in an out-patient service as the father. The entire time that Cynthia was pregnant, she never acknowledged that she was pregnant. She had the baby and they expressed real concerns about -- she wouldn't make eye contact with the baby, she wouldn't feed it, she wouldn't change its diapers. So the doctor wrote a letter saying he was concerned that, were you to have custody of this baby, it wouldn't be fed, it wouldn't be changed, it wouldn't be cared for. And so, the child went into foster care.

DEBORAH GREY: Half brother. Right.

DEBORAH GREY: It's farther down the continuum, but, yes. It's very similar.

DEBORAH GREY: No eye contact, a lack of interest, seeming cold, seeming hollow.

DEBORAH GREY: Seeming curiously detached.

DEBORAH GREY: Not feeding, not changing and things like that were very similar.

DEBORAH GREY: Donald was adopted and I had the opportunity to meet Donald, as well, as to meet his adopted father. Donald is 28, I guess, at this point, and working in a local donut shop on the midnight circuit. He goes in at about 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning and makes donuts and he's been doing that for several years. I have Donald's school records and it was apparent from the school records that he had some school difficulties. They qualified them as learning disabilities at some point, but they were pretty severe. Severe enough that he was in special classes. He's still living at home and the indication that we got from his dad was that Donald probably does not have sufficient independent living skills to be able to survive on his own at this point. Nonetheless, Donald has had no problems with the law and no experience with drugs and alcohol. The family that Donald was adopted into was a couple and the mother's mother was also living with them at the time and all three of these people appeared to have been extremely nurturing, very structured, very consistent people who provided this little baby with a lot of love, but a lot of consistency, a lack of chaos, a lack of abuse, a lack of uproar and good parental boundaries. And so, Donald is having problems living independently, but he is not having problems with the law or with any sort of personal violence or drug abuse that I know of.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct.

DEBORAH GREY: Right.

DEBORAH GREY: Well, these parents certainly represented something in the way of resilience and the way that I look at it is, we're all dealt a hand in life and that hand is the genes that we come into the world with and the family that we're born into, who our parents were. It's the family that teaches you how to play that hand, your genetic hand that you were given. You learn that through your family and through your community on your day to day interactions with those people. What happened for Donald, who had just as much, if not worse, genetic loading than Tim Jones does is that he went into a family that could give him a better instruction book for life, if you will. They gave him the opportunities to develop what he did have rather than the stresses that would have -- could have lead those genetic predispositions to addiction and to mental illness. Very strong on both sides of this little boy's family. Those were not expressed.

DEBORAH GREY: A matter of days.

DEBORAH GREY: I think he was always -- if I remember right, they kept him in the hospital so that he wouldn't be going home with her and in the process of that, someone in the hospital wrote a letter to child protective services and said, something needs to be done here, this woman can't care for this child.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct. Yeah. The letter, I believe, said, she can't even take care of herself. Much less, take care of an infant.

DEBORAH GREY: Lydia was born sometime around the same time as Elias. Around 2007 and -- excuse me. Cynthia never knew that she was pregnant with Lydia, if I remember correctly, and I believe she was taking anti-psychotics at the time and she didn't receive any sort of prenatal care. She gave birth to both of these children at home on the toilet. With Lydia, she was, I believe, taken immediately and she was placed, I believe, with the father's sister as a foster parent because it was acknowledged that Cynthia couldn't take care of her, but Lydia died within a matter of two or three weeks, I think, for undetermined reasons.

DEBORAH GREY: I don't remember that.

DEBORAH GREY: Actually, Cynthia came down to Mississippi while her daughter was in physical distress, having problems as an infant, up in Syracuse and it was shortly after Cynthia returned to Syracuse that her baby died.

DEBORAH GREY: The baby had already been placed elsewhere --

DEBORAH GREY: -- but she did. Yes.

DEBORAH GREY: William was Cynthia's second pregnancy while -- after Tim, Jr., was born and she and Tim, Sr., and little Tim went back to stay with Roberta while she was pregnant. What Roberta describes is, Cynthia called her into the bathroom where Cynthia was in the tub and she was laughing hysterically and the room was covered with blood. Blood everywhere. Cynthia went to the hospital and, I believe, delivered a child or a dead child and I'm not sure how many months old that child was because we weren't able to find any records on that, but we've heard it described from both Tim, Sr., and from Roberta that that happened and both of them believed that Cynthia actually murdered this child. The significance, in part, is that this is part of family lore and it's part of what you hear about when you talk about Cynthia and her bizarre behaviors. This is one more of those bizarre behaviors.

DEBORAH GREY: He would have.

DEBORAH GREY: Under the age of three.

DEBORAH GREY: Uh-huh, (affirmative response). This was something that I put together, in part, because the genogram is so confusing and it just simplifies it down to Tim Jones' parents and I put his grandmother in there because she was the defacto mother up until the time that Tim Jones, Sr., married Carolyn. So with the grandmother, you have a woman who was abandoned as a child, raped as a child, helpless and unprotected, pregnant by 11, kidnapped, tortured, trafficked with a family history of mental illness and the star by that is because anything that is heritable, which can be a predisposition, can be inherited. It has a star by it. And in adulthood, that lead to substance abuse, verbal abuse, violence, threats, obscenities and mental illness. For the father, he was the child for a mother -- his -- he was witness to father and grandfather's torture and I say father and grandfather because he was both. Ted Montane. He was helpless and unprotected. Exposed to mother's violence after she left Ted Montane. Family history of substance abuse, family history of mental illness and as an adult, he's had problems with substance abuse, verbal abuse, violence, threats and obscenities in the household. The mother Cynthia, repeatedly raped as a child, helpless and unprotected, a witness to domestic violence, a family history of substance abuse and mental illness and as an adult, had substance abuse and schizophrenia and these are the people who were charged with taking care of Tim Jones, Jr.

DEBORAH GREY: Correct. It's a distillation of that great, big genogram that we were looking at.

DEBORAH GREY: Yes. As a part of being a social history, I include a genogram and I also try to think of diagrams that would show family relationships over time.

DEBORAH GREY: I have.

DEBORAH GREY: That's right.