7.Roberta Thornsberry — Direct/Cross/Redirect (Recall) (Part 2)
240 linesMR. SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, we're not going to go into the details of your life before Tim was born. Okay?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Okay.
MR. SECOR: But I just want to know whether you agree that your life before Tim was born was very difficult at times?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very difficult.
MR. SECOR: Where you suffered trauma and abuse?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: On many occasions.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. And that loss didn't stop after Tim was born because you lost two of your children since Tim, Jr. was born, right?
MR. SECOR: And just help remind the jury of those two children, if you would.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Elaine, she died at 29 of cancer. Larry, Jr., died at 23 in an accident.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. And you also lost your great-grandchildren?
MR. SECOR: Merah, Eli, Nahtahn, Gabe and Elaine?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes. I also lost another grandchild.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Elaine's daughter.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
MR. SECOR: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. You may.
MR. SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, I'm going to show you some photos that have already been introduced into evidence, which would be Defendant's Exhibit 144, 162 and 164. And then, another photograph that has been marked for identification purposes as Defendant's 324. Just look at them and just tell me if you recognize those.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I do.
MR. SECOR: And are these family --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Family pictures --
MR. SECOR: -- pictures?
MR. GRAHAM: No objection.
MR. SECOR: And that was in reference, Your Honor, to Defendant's -- what's been marked for ID 324. So we would offer that into evidence.
THE COURT: 324 is in evidence.
MR. SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: It's in, without objection.
(Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit number 324 and 325 were admitted into evidence)
MR. SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, I just have a few pictures. I know you've talked to the jury about some other pictures and we might look at those again. But I think this is one that you haven't seen before and I'm hoping that you can just tell us about this photo.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Elaine holding little Tim on her feet and that's Larry, Jr., in the background.
MR. SECOR: So Elaine, that's the daughter that died of cancer?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Elaine is deceased and so is Larry, Jr.
MR. SECOR: And where was this picture taken?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It was at my house.
MR. SECOR: Whereabouts?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: In Palatine, (phonetic, Illinois.
MR. SECOR: Okay. And I'm just hoping that this picture can sort of help you tell the jury about your memories of Tim, Jr., as a kid and whether this is the type of scene that you would see around your house when he was that age.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It was. He was a very happy little boy. I mean, he had his moments, but for the most part, he was a happy little boy.
MR. SECOR: What did he call you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He called me mom.
MR. SECOR: Mom. Is that after Cynthia left that he started calling you mom?
MR. SECOR: And do you remember the types of things that he liked to do with his dad, Tim, Sr., the most when he was young?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He loved to think he was Spiderman. He would climb the door casing. He would take two chairs and use what's on the chairs, and then he would just jump. He loved to swim, loved to go to the park, loved to dress up and go with his dad.
MR. SECOR: Did he want to be with his dad as much as he could?
MR. SECOR: What about camping trips? Did you all go on --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: We did go camping. He loved to go camping.
MR. SECOR: Where would you go?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: We would go to Whitewater, Wisconsin --
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: And we would use tents and we would get on their boats and he totally enjoyed it.
MR. SECOR: I'm going to put up on the screen what's Defendant's Exhibit 144. I think the jury may have seen this one before, but this -- who's that?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Tim, Jr., and myself and that was on a boat in Whitewater, Wisconsin.
MR. SECOR: Where you went --
MR. SECOR: -- where you went camping? There's periods of time that Tim, Jr., gave you a hard time when he was growing up?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He went through his little spells, but, yeah. That was just being a kid, I thought.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. What was your communication with him like when he did that stint in prison in Illinois?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: When he went to prison?
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I wrote him a letter every day that he was there. I visited him and talked to him two times a week. As much as I could afford and if I was out of town, I would hurry back to get back to get his calls.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That was every Sunday and every day, a letter.
MR. SECOR: And what did you -- what would you do when you had written him so much that you couldn't think of anything else to say?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I started buying cards and just put them little smiley faces on them and I love you. Old religious cards and things.
MR. SECOR: Just because you wanted --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Just so we communicated. I wanted to make sure he got something every day.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. I believe the jury's seen these pictures before, but I just wanted to remind them again of these pictures. Tell us, who's in that picture?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's my husband and all of my great-grand babies and my son.
MR. SECOR: And this was in --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's Atlanta, Georgia.
MR. SECOR: And this is the last time --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's the last time I saw them.
MR. SECOR: I think that you said that that was the morning that you all left?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's the morning we left.
MR. SECOR: Now, can you tell the jury about -- and I know that it's difficult, but tell them about what it's like to have lost your great-grandchildren.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It's devastating. I mean, I can't explain it. Unless you've lost a child or a grandchild, you wouldn't know the feeling. It's an emptiness that never goes away. They never leave your mind. I think about them daily. You see little things that just constantly remind you that you had them and they're not there anymore. It's horrible. It's a part of you that's taken away that you can't get back.
MR. SECOR: Do you feel things like guilt that you should --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I feel sunken, I just wish there was something I could have done. I wish there was something I could have seen. I mean, I should have tuned into this kind of thing, but I didn't and I feel totally guilty that I wasn't there to help him because he needed help. He was devastated with taking care of the kids. I seen that when I was in Atlanta and I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what. He was trying to go home with them that day and I didn't know what to do.
MR. SECOR: And if you'd thought that your great-grand babies were in danger --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I would have walked there.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. Ms. Thornsberry, before court today, we showed you --
MR. SECOR: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. You may.
(Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit number 352 was marked for identification purposes)
MR. SECOR: I'm going to show you this flash drive that's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit, for ID purposes, 352. We showed you that flash drive beforehand --
MR. SECOR: -- with the video on it?
MR. SECOR: And do you --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It's a video of my backyard.
MR. SECOR: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Defendant's Exhibit 352 into evidence.
THE COURT: Subject to State's objection, it'll be admitted.
(Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit number 352 was admitted into evidence)
MR. SECOR: Permission to publish it, please.
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. SECOR: And just before we play it, Ms. Thornsberry, tell the jury where this is.
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: It's in my backyard.
MR. SECOR: Who's that with the American flag shirt on?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That's my son, Tim, Sr., and that's Eli.
(Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit number 352 was published to the jury starting at 12:09 p.m. and ended at 12:10 p.m.)
MR. SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, who was that that was feeding Eli there?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: That was Jackie, my granddaughter.
MR. SECOR: And that's Senior's stepdaughter, I guess --
MR. SECOR: -- right? The daughter of Julia?
MR. SECOR: I know it's been tough on you and I'm sorry and I'm almost done. I just -- I want the jury to hear from you about the tremendous decision put before them. So I want to ask you, do you want Tim, Tim, Jr., put to death?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No. God, no. I love him. Our family's been through enough. I just don't think we can take anymore. This has broke us so bad and that, I think, would just be the final nail in the coffin. I just don't think I can take anymore.
MR. SECOR: Do you still love Tim?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Oh, God. I love him with all of my heart. I don't think, when you love someone, it never goes away.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. I appreciate you talking to us today.
CROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Graham:
MR. GRAHAM: Ms. Thornsberry, the first time that you learned that something was wrong in September or, I guess, at the end of August, your grandson was supposed to bring the grandchildren in for a visit?
MR. GRAHAM: And he didn't show?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
MR. GRAHAM: And then, I think, over the next several days, you began to call and text?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
MR. GRAHAM: And he just ignored you --
MR. GRAHAM: -- and never answered? And then, at some point, you received a phone call from, I believe, the Principal or Vice-Principal from Eli, Merah and Nahtahn's school --
MR. GRAHAM: -- saying they hadn't showed up for school?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
MR. GRAHAM: And you told your son, Tim, Sr., and then he called the police?
MR. GRAHAM: December of 2012. I believe that was the last time -- except for the aquarium visit. So prior to the aquarium visit, 2012 in December was the last time that time, your grandson, brought the grandchildren. Is that correct?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Correct.
MR. GRAHAM: And he and his dad got into an argument about the way Tim, Jr., was treating the women in the house. Isn't that correct?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I'm not really sure what it was about. I wasn't there. I just know that he left that night.
MR. GRAHAM: He grabbed his children up and he drove back to South Carolina and he never came back again?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Never came back again.
MR. GRAHAM: And he never -- except for the aquarium visit with you, he never let -- nobody else in the family ever went to South Carolina to see your great-grandchildren, did they?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: No. Not to my knowledge.
MR. GRAHAM: The Atlanta trip at the -- supposed to go to the aquarium. You didn't actually go, right?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
MR. GRAHAM: It was a one night visit?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: One night visit.
MR. GRAHAM: And you said you could tell that he was stressed out, I think, is how you described it?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Very much.
MR. GRAHAM: And you offered to take the babies since they were out of school?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right. I would take the ones that weren't in school home with me until he came in. And he said, I can't live without my babies, Grandma.
MR. GRAHAM: And now, you're aware that he submitted that he was addicted to spice and was smoking spice up to five times a day during that time period?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I am aware of that now. Yes.
MR. GRAHAM: Did you have any knowledge that there was a May of 2014 DSS report involving Nahtahn?
MR. GRAHAM: You didn't have any knowledge of the safety plan that he was not supposed to use any kind of physical punishment on the children?
MR. GRAHAM: You were not aware of the August of 2014 DSS report?
MR. GRAHAM: And his agreement not to use physical punishment?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I knew nothing of any of that.
MR. GRAHAM: In the Atlanta trip, did he use physical punishment on any of the children?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He didn't discipline the children then. I mean, they were basically with their Grandpa and I and I knew something was wrong. He didn't look right. He looked all wet. He was sweaty. He was just -- you know, he had lost weight since I had seen him. Something wasn't right and I didn't know what it was and he was drinking, which I was -- Tim was drinking, smoking cigarettes. I wasn't accustomed to that.
MR. GRAHAM: And you had testified before that your grandson, Tim, Jr., was selfish, correct?
MR. GRAHAM: And you said that was probably because he was an only child and his dad spoiled him?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Right.
MR. GRAHAM: And he was stubborn, too, wasn't he?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: He kind of was. Yeah.
MR. GRAHAM: In fact, other than maintaining a relationship with you, he cut off his father after that December of 2012 incident, didn't he?
MR. GRAHAM: And, in fact, the only reason that he was coming down for a visit is because you told, I believe, Tim, Sr., to call and apologize. Is that correct?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: My husband had them communicate.
MR. GRAHAM: Your husband did. The two of you talked about it?
MR. GRAHAM: So your grandson would not have come other than for the fact -- planned to come other than for the fact that your son called and apologized?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I'm not sure how it went down, but I do know they talked.
MR. GRAHAM: Did you ever notice whether he was harder on Nahtahn than the other children?
MR. GRAHAM: Were you aware that Nahtahn wanted to be with Amber?
MR. GRAHAM: Were you aware that Merah wanted to be with Amber?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I know when they first split up and everything, Merah had said that. But then, after that, Merah said she wasn't leaving her daddy because she was going to help take care of the children. She was a good girl. And the kids did ask me why didn't their mom come to see them. They would go to the place where they were supposed to meet her and she wouldn't show up and the kids would be very upset and talk to me.
MR. GRAHAM: You have heard that when your grandson killed Eli, that Eli said, daddy, can I come with you?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I've heard that.
MR. GRAHAM: And we know that Tim was so selfish that he killed Eli. Isn't that true?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I know he killed Eli.
MR. GRAHAM: We know that Merah was begging for her life, no, no, no, and that your grandson was so selfish, he killed her. Isn't that true?
MR. GRAHAM: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Secor:
MR. SECOR: Ms. Thornsberry, when you got the call from Saxe Gotha that the kids hadn't been in school, what did you do?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I called my son. I knew something was wrong because even the Principal said, this is just -- it's way out of the ordinary.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. And what did you do -- what did you and Senior do?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: We went to Kentucky to my daughter's house so we could be closer. In case something happened, we could get there sooner.
MR. SECOR: Were you talking to various people?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I talked to everybody.
MR. SECOR: And was -- do you know whether Tim, Sr., was in contact with law enforcement?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Yes, he was.
MR. SECOR: And did he call other people in South Carolina?
MR. SECOR: And were you all trying to --
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Desperately to find where they were at.
MR. SECOR: And when you got asked questions by people, did you give them all the information that you could?
MR. SECOR: Since Tim was arrested, you've been asked to cooperate with various people involved in this case, right?
MR. SECOR: And have you always done that?
MR. SECOR: And that included talking to, I think, Dr. Frierson, right?
MR. SECOR: And has anybody in this case asked you to do anything that you've refused to do?
MR. SECOR: Has the Solicitor's Office ever reached out to you as a victim in this case?
MR. SECOR: The Solicitor's Office. The Prosecution, have they ever reached out to as --
MR. SECOR: Mr. Graham was talking to you about the fact that Tim was using spice. You know that now?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: I do.
MR. SECOR: And he talked to you about things that Tim did in his life. You said that you described him as selfish when he was younger?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: Selfish. He was an only child.
MR. SECOR: Yes, ma'am. There are people in your family -- a number of people in your family who have suffered from various problems, right?
MR. SECOR: And that would include people who had really serious problems with drugs and alcohol?
MR. SECOR: And would that include you at some times?
MR. GRAHAM: Your Honor, objection. Beyond the scope.
MR. SECOR: He specifically asked about these things, traits.
THE COURT: I'll let her answer the question.
MR. SECOR: That's something that runs in your family, right?
MR. SECOR: That's the kind of thing that Tim, Jr., was around when he was a young kid?
ROBERTA THORNSBERRY: When he was very young. Yes.
MR. SECOR: That's the kind of thing that Tim, Sr., was around when he was a kid, too, right?
MR. SECOR: Thank you, ma'am.
MR. GRAHAM: Nothing else.
THE COURT: Ms. Thornsberry, you may step down.
(Whereupon, the witness stepped down from the witness stand)
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to send you all to the jury room. Don't talk about the case. Step in the jury room. It'll probably be 1:40 or so before we start back. So we'll have plenty of time. All right.
(Whereupon, the jury was excused from the courtroom.)