5.Deborah Grey — Direct (Part 1)
261 linesDEBORAH GREY, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
COURT CLERK: Have a seat, please, ma'am. Once you're seated, state your full name, spelling your last, please.
DEBORAH GREY: My name is Deborah Grey, D-E-B-O-R-A-H, G-R-E-Y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SECOR:
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Grey, would you just tell the jury who you are and a little bit about your background and education?
DEBORAH GREY: My name is Deborah Grey. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I have an undergraduate and a graduate degree in Communications from Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. From Wake Forest, I went to work at the Department of Social Services. And I worked there, not as a social worker to start with, I worked taking food stamp applications, doing intake-type things. But I started in graduate school in social work while I was at DSS. And I did adult protective services and I worked in a family counseling unit, and I did that for about five years. In the course of that time, I was working primarily with families where children had been abused or neglected and I worked with parents and families trying to deal with the issues that had been going on and trying to keep families together, or if they couldn't stay together, to help them to come apart in ways that were best for the children.
From there, I went to a private psychiatric hospital and I worked with adolescents there, kids who had been hospitalized because they were having problems living in the community. So I worked with teenagers and their families and, ultimately, I also worked with adults there who were having psychiatric-type problems. I left there after six years and went into private practice with a group of psychiatrists, psychologists and clinical social workers like myself. We diagnosed and treated primarily mood disorders and anxiety disorders, although we did have some thought disorders in the practice, such as schizophrenia. Primarily, we dealt with mood disorders. And my job there was to do psychosocial histories on clients and make recommendations and refer them on to the physicians for medication evaluation. And in the process of doing that, I probably did thousands of psychosocial histories during that time. I also saw patients, 35 to 45 patients in the course of a week.
Primarily, working with people who had mood disorders or anxiety disorders and, oftentimes, working with their families. I had an area of specialization in the clinic working with people who had had some form of trauma in their life when they were younger or had had substance abuse in their families when they were younger and it was causing them problems in their adult life. During the time that I was working there, I started working with the licensing board for social work in North Carolina and I worked as an investigator for them on ethics complaints for about six years. And what that meant was that anytime someone filed a complaint against a social worker, a licensed social worker in North Carolina, someone would go out and do an investigation to see what was going on, what the findings and then testify in hearings related to those complaints.
I also started working some with courts and working specifically with attorneys with clients who had been charged with serious charges, frequently, Capital murder where I would do in-depth psychosocial histories and, oftentimes, testified. I've worked with attorneys in the military, in the Army, in the Air Force. I've worked in states all across the country. I've testified in various courts and, also, in front of the Department of Justice. And that's what I've been doing in addition to my private practice for about the past five years. I left my private practice behind as we moved up to Southwestern North Carolina, about 120 miles from here. My husband retired and I continue to do some work doing psychosocial histories in forensic cases.
CASEY SECOR: And tell us what is a psychosocial history and how is it done?
DEBORAH GREY: A psychosocial history, the long phrase for that is a bio-psychosocial history, but that's something that I think is too much of a mouthful, so when I say social history, you'll know I mean bio-psychosocial history. We look at three different aspects of a person's life. We look at the biological aspects, and that would include their genetic predispositions, their medical history, their neurological deficits, mental illness, mental retardation, IQ, things like substance abuse, exposure to toxins. And then we have to look at all of those issues for every member of their family. And we do that by requesting records, lots and lots of records. The bio part of the bio-psychosocial history has to do with a person's cognitive and emotional and social competencies, how they internally navigate the world. It's their coping skills, their problem-solving skills, their Defense mechanisms, their social skills, their personality structure and their developmental functioning. Are they functioning like a 26-year-old or are they functioning like an eight-year-old? We look at those sorts of things. And finally, the social part of the bio-psychosocial history has to do with their interactions with the world, including the quality of that maternal bond when they were little, the risk factors in early and mid-childhood, family patterns of abandonment and abuse that may have affected this person in the present, physical, emotional, sexual abuse or neglect, family stability, economic, emotional and residential school adjustment and neighborhood demographics. We're also looking to see what kind of relationships has this person had in the course of their life? Have they been significant relationships? Have they had people that they felt close to? So that's the social side.
CASEY SECOR: And what fields rely on social histories like this?
DEBORAH GREY: I've been in the social services world and I've been in the psychiatric world and both of those fields rely on social histories. When I first started doing social histories, it was to work with the district attorney's office and the police department in presenting adult protective services issues. And this, it was to present child protective services issues in the courts. More recently, it's been working with psychiatrist, hand-in-hand, sometimes doing their treatment while they provide the medications. A lot of communication there and they rely on the social history. In the forensics setting, oftentimes, the forensic psychiatrist and the psychologist will rely on in-depth social history. They're concerned about what happened at the time of the crime, I'm concerned about everything that led up to that. And this information that I've gathered gives them a sense of this person's life history leading up to the day that the crime happened.
CASEY SECOR: And did you conduct a social history in this case on Tim?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, I did.
CASEY SECOR: And that's your role in this case?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, it is.
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, at this time, the Defense would offer Ms. Grey as an expert in licensed clinical social work.
THE COURT: Any voir dire?
RICK HUBBARD: No, sir, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. She is so qualified.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Grey, you did a little bit of this, but tell the jury in a little bit more detail, more specific to this case the type of sources you use in creating your social history.
DEBORAH GREY: I look at gathering information to put together a history as wanting to have the most stability that I can in my data, so I think about it as being a three-legged stool. And one of those legs is whatever the individual who's been charged is telling me. Another leg is what the family tells me, what the community tells me, what people who knew this person tells me. And I try to see whether there are correlations or confirmations between those things. And the third leg is documents. I look to see if there are documents out there that might confirm something that I've been told, might even give more detail about something that I've been told. So I'm constantly checking things that I hear in the here and now with things that I hear from other people as well as things that I read in documents that I've gotten.
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Grey, you've reviewed the Defense -- what's been marked for identification purposes Defense Exhibits 353 through 360. Are these the records that you reviewed in this case electronically?
DEBORAH GREY: I did review them electronically. I did not have to have paper copies of these.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And these records, you've looked at these notebooks to know that these records are all -- every record in here is double-sided, right?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, they are.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And these records pertain to people in Tim's family to Tim?
DEBORAH GREY: For every person that's got a genetic relationship to Tim, I've tried to find whatever records I can that would relate to their medical condition, their school history, their mental health conditions, their legal history, their substance abuse history. So whenever a person is identified as being genetically related on either side, I'm asking for and looking for records about that person as well as records about Tim.
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, subject to the previous objection, we'd offer Defense 353 through 360 for evidence.
THE COURT: Consistent with my prior ruling, those will not be allowed into evidence. Subparts may be extracted, though.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. I just ask that --
THE COURT: We discussed that pretrial.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. Just ask that you note my objection, please.
THE COURT: Noted.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you. (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibits 353 through 360 were marked for identification only.)
CASEY SECOR: Now, the social history -- what's one of the, sort of, instruments you use to represent the social history in a single page or in a single image?
DEBORAH GREY: One of the tools that social workers use is something that's called a genogram. And a genogram is sort of a fancy word for a family tree. Lots of people, probably on the jury even have family trees. This is a family tree. And it's a family tree for Mr. Jones, for Tim, that goes back two or three generations. I put that together for two reasons. One is as I'm coming to know the different people in the family, it helps me to keep those relationships straight because it gets very confusing. But as I find out more information about each of these people, over time, I'm adding things to that family tree that show the types of problems or difficulties that person might have had in the family. I'm looking for patterns.
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: You may. (WHEREUPON, Defendant's Exhibit numbers 362 and 363 were marked for identification.)
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Grey, I just want to ask you if you recognize what has been marked for identification purposes as Defense 362 and 363?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, sir, I do.
CASEY SECOR: Are these accurate representations of two versions of the genogram for Tim?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, they are.
CASEY SECOR: Your Honor, I would offer Defense Exhibit 362 and 363 into evidence and ask permission to publish 362 at this time for purposes --
THE COURT: Let me see them again. I saw them earlier, but --
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: -- but there were two versions and I'm not certain which one I saw. All right. 362 will be admitted over State's objection.
RICK HUBBARD: No, Your Honor, I have no objection.
THE COURT: Withdrawn. (WHEREUPON, Defendant's Exhibit number 362 was admitted into evidence.)
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Grey, I'm going to show you 362. And you see at the top of it, it says Tim Jones. Now, is this the genogram that you created sort of initially about Tim and his family?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, it is.
CASEY SECOR: I'm going to zoom in in hopes that we can see it a little bit better, but will you tell the jury what some of the -- how a person looks at these and what the key means?
DEBORAH GREY: Is there any way I can have a laser printer [sic] so that I can show them --
THE COURT: Right there. Push the button in the middle and it should point. A Okay. There is a key here and in the key, it tells you that a circle represents a female, a square represents a male and the line between them represents a marriage. If someone has an X through their square or circle, it means that they're deceased. So as you look up here in this family, you have great-grandmother and then you have -- that's Tim's great-grandmother. And then you have the man who is his great-grandfather and he is also his grandfather. You have his grandmother, Roberta. You have his father, Tim, Sr. and then you have Tim right here, Amber, and then the children. Over here is his mother, Cynthia.
THE COURT: Mr. Secor?
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I've got one of the jurors indicating to me you may be standing in their way.
CASEY SECOR: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: That's all right. So just be aware, maybe stand over here closer in front of Joy.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Whichever.
CASEY SECOR: Thank you.
THE COURT: Now, y'all realize, if you want to turn, it's easier to see the monitor there or the details up there, y'all go either way. Okay?
CASEY SECOR: Thank you, sir.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. So you just got done outlining some of the main characters. And the other exhibit that we'll talk to the jury about, at the end, how does that differ, is that colored by the social history?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes. At the conclusion of talking about the social history, there will be a genogram that shows everything that I found in the course of doing this investigation.
CASEY SECOR: I guess the best thing to do is leave this up for reference for now. Does that make sense to you?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, please.
CASEY SECOR: That's about as good as I can do on the zooming. So I guess we can sort of start now to tell the jury this social history, this story of this family's life. Is that -- unless I've forgotten to mention something that we need to talk about?
DEBORAH GREY: (Witness nods head.) No.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Well, let's start with Roberta. The jury's heard some things about Roberta's life, but from your perspective as a clinical social worker and in the realm of social history, what does your social history reveal that was important to you about Roberta and her young life?
DEBORAH GREY: I'll say a word about why the social history is important to a clinical social worker and why we're going to start with his grandmother and grandfather. And that is when people go to the doctor, the doctor ask you what your family history is or medical illnesses, like heart disease or diabetes or seizure disorders. And they do that because these are things that have a degree of heritability to them. The tendency or the predisposition can be inherited and they want to know what that is in your background. They want to know that in part because then they want to look at you and say what are the risk factors that you have that could contribute to you developing these conditions. For example, if they find out you have heart disease, they may want to look at your weight. They may want to look at your diet. They may want to look at exercise. They may want to look at your stress level. All of those are documented risk factors for developing heart disease in somebody who has that predisposition. I'm looking for other predispositions and I'm looking for patterns. When someone goes to see a clinical social worker, we say tell us not just about your parents, but tell us about your grandparents and what you know about how they were raised. And in particular, in this family, it's important because Grandmother Roberta, actually, at some point became a default mother for Tim. So she's not just his grandmother, she's also in some ways the person who took over his care around three years old.
CASEY SECOR: And the risk factors you look for, do you also try to look for whether or not people have, I think what you call, resilient factors?
DEBORAH GREY: I do.
CASEY SECOR: And tell us what the resilient factors mean for your purposes.
DEBORAH GREY: Resilient factors are those things that will buffer or protect somebody from developing a condition. For example, let's go back to the heart disease issue. You're protective factors in that would be keep your weight down. You don't smoke cigarettes. You exercise regularly. You manage your stress. Those are all protective factors. In families, the protective factors would be, for example, a loving and caring relationship with a primary caregiver. It could be that you have adequate food and shelter and clothing. It could be that there was a teacher somewhere along the line that took special interest in you and encouraged you along the way even though you were having difficult times in your family. Those are examples of some protective factors.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. So when you look at Roberta's young life, what's important to you for the purposes of social history?
DEBORAH GREY: We're looking at Roberta here, Tim's grandmother. Roberta's mother had five children and Roberta was the youngest. She was in a series of difficult relationships and relinquished those five children, one of whom went to live with one set of relatives, another went to live with a different set of relatives and Roberta and the other two went to live in an orphanage. Roberta was about three years old when that happened. This is significant as a social worker because what Roberta reports is that she always felt that she was abandoned, that she was not wanted. Coming out of that, there came a time when Roberta was going home for Christmas with her father. Father brought them back --
CASEY SECOR: I just want to say, when -- going home for Christmas, do you mean from the orphanage?
DEBORAH GREY: From the orphanage. He picked her up at the orphanage and was taking her home for Christmas. And when he brought her back, the orphanage was closed. So he left her and her little sister -- or her big sister on the orphanage steps with a note pinned to their chest. They were about five or six years old at the time. Subsequently, Roberta's mom married a man named Ted Montaine.
CASEY SECOR: And that would be up there at the top of the genogram, is that right?
DEBORAH GREY: That's right. That's right. Roberta said in a form that she completed, I believe, for the State's evaluation, something called a mental health questionnaire, that Ted Montaine used to throw boiling water on her mother, that he threw her mother down the stairs, that he beat Roberta, too --
THE COURT: This is some of the details I want to --
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
THE COURT: Keep moving.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir. A Okay. And that he began having sex with her when she was eight years old.
CASEY SECOR: And that's Roberta?
DEBORAH GREY: That's Roberta.
CASEY SECOR: And she came home from the orphanage -- or her mother brought her home from the orphanage around age --
DEBORAH GREY: Correct.
CASEY SECOR: -- eight? So the home that she comes back to is her mother, Bernadine, and the new stepfather, Ted Montaine?
DEBORAH GREY: That's right.
CASEY SECOR: And he's the person that starts having sex with her?
DEBORAH GREY: He started having sex with her and with her sisters.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. How does his abuse of Roberta -- does it continue or is it a one-time incident?
DEBORAH GREY: It did continue. It continued with enough frequency that age 11, he impregnated her. She got pregnant at age 11.
CASEY SECOR: And Roberta got pregnant at age 11 with what child?
DEBORAH GREY: Ted Montaine's child.
CASEY SECOR: Right.
DEBORAH GREY: Her stepfather's child.
CASEY SECOR: And that child was to be?
DEBORAH GREY: Tim Jones, Sr.
CASEY SECOR: That would be Tim's dad?
DEBORAH GREY: Tim's dad was born when his mom was 12 years old, that's correct.
CASEY SECOR: Was that the only child that Ted Montaine has through the sexual abuse of Roberta?
DEBORAH GREY: No. Roberta was taken out of school in the fifth grade and Ted Montaine subsequently took her from her home. She had a second child by him at age 14. She had a third child by him at age 16. And at age 16, he forced her to marry him. There's a wedding certificate that shows Roberta as being 22 and Ted Montaine being 39. Ted Montaine was 39, but Roberta was only 16, according to her own birth certificate.
CASEY SECOR: And is -- Roberta's mother, Bernadine, is she around anymore or has Ted taken them away from her?
DEBORAH GREY: Ted had taken them away from her mother and she reports that nobody came to look for her. Her mother didn't come to look for her reinforcing that idea of being an unwanted child.
CASEY SECOR: And what is life like -- just a couple of examples, what is life like for Roberta and Tim, Sr.? Tim, Sr. is an infant, I guess, at this point.
DEBORAH GREY: Tim, Sr. was an infant to about age five while they were all living together. And Tim, Sr. saw certain things like Ted Montaine beating and choking his mother with some frequency. The relationship between Roberta and Ted Montaine was a very violent one. He frequently would beat her, sometimes to the point of unconsciousness.
THE COURT: Keep moving.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And the other things he forced her into for the purposes of him making money were what?
DEBORAH GREY: He put Roberta into prostitution while she was still a young teenager. She was only 17 when she managed to finally get away from him. And so, it was before the age of 17, probably around 15 or 16.
CASEY SECOR: And these are the things that are happening before Tim, Sr. reaches the age of five?
DEBORAH GREY: That's right.
CASEY SECOR: And the reason that the things involving Ted Montaine stop when Tim, Sr. is five is because they get away from him, is that right?
DEBORAH GREY: They did manage to get away from them -- from him.
CASEY SECOR: Once they got away from him, does he still play a role in their lives even though they're not living with him?
DEBORAH GREY: He did. Roberta, as she phrases it, was rescued by her knight in shining armor, her husband still today, Larry, who was also only 17. So we have two 17-year-olds with three small children, two still in diapers, who then start running across the country trying to get away from Ted Montaine because she's afraid that he will find her and hurt her or take her back into his custody. So they're on the move for a good part of Tim, Sr.'s childhood.
CASEY SECOR: And just as an example, from your social history, what does it tell you about the number of schools that Tim, Sr. went to as a child?
DEBORAH GREY: Tim, Sr. describes going to eight or nine schools before they finally settled down and he was in late middle school. So he was on the move, at least, once a year, if not more than once a year to various cities and various states.
CASEY SECOR: And will you point out to us where Larry Thornsberry is, the person that Roberta married when she got away from Ted?
DEBORAH GREY: I'm --
CASEY SECOR: Does your pointer not work?
DEBORAH GREY: -- trying.
CASEY SECOR: May I approach?
THE COURT: Yes. A Wait, there we go. This is Larry, Sr. right over here, a step-grandfather. And Larry, Sr. came to Tim, Sr. as dad. So if you hear him talking about his dad, that's who he's referring to. He's not referring to Ted Montaine, who is his biological father and his step-grandfather.
CASEY SECOR: Now, the jury has heard some testimony about Larry Thornsberry, Roberta's husband, and some of the issues that they had in their family. But from the perspective of social work, just describe some of the things that happened in their relationship and what their home was like and why, from the perspective of social work, that is reflective of what had happened to Roberta before.
DEBORAH GREY: Part of what Tim, Sr. says is that Roberta started drinking and she started drinking a lot as a way to deal with what she had been through, but he also reports that when she would get triggered, she would go into these rages, these rampages. Is it okay if I use certain language here? There's a lot of profanity in this family and the children were exposed to it.
THE COURT: A little bit. The jury has heard some salty language. I presume that's what you're talking about. A I am.
CASEY SECOR: And if it's convenient to use abbreviations, if necessary, I believe everybody will probably know what you mean.
DEBORAH GREY: Okay. What Tim, Sr. said was her drinking was always bad and it got worse as she got older. She would take out on Larry. She would F the house up. She was in Mt. Prospect. My mom believes in ghost shit. She thought the house was haunted. Mom pulled a gun out and pointed it at everyone. It had a hair trigger. And she said she was going to kill all of your MFer's. She claimed it was the spirits in her and then she busted up the whole house again. But they never arrested her. They just -- the police came and they let her go home. He said our normal life was just constant shit. You never knew what was going to happen next. I was always alert, always watching to see what would happen. My dad did the best that he could.
CASEY SECOR: And when Senior was talking about his dad then, he was talking about?
DEBORAH GREY: Larry.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And Larry also had some difficult things in his past that I think you raised in your social history?
DEBORAH GREY: I did.
CASEY SECOR: If we could just touch on a couple of those.
DEBORAH GREY: Roberta married a man who came from trauma not unlike her own. At the time she married him, Larry's father, Buck, was in prison for killing two men. His father had also had sex with his daughters. Larry's father had beaten his mother. And one of Larry's sisters had accidentally killed his other sister while playing with a loaded shotgun. So he came from a lot of difficulties in his life, too.
CASEY SECOR: And Larry and Roberta are married for a few years and then are divorced, is that right?
DEBORAH GREY: Right.
CASEY SECOR: And tell us who Roberta marries at that point?
DEBORAH GREY: Roberta then married a man named Phillip Caliendo who had a lot of money and had some alleged ties to the mob. And so the family went from being family poor to having a lot of resources. But the relationship between Roberta and Phillip was also one that had a lot of fighting and a lot of arguing in it.
CASEY SECOR: And the descriptions that you got from Senior about the drinking and the trashing the house and the threatening with weapons and obscenities, does your social history show that that continues, that behavior of Roberta's continues while she's married to Phillip Caliendo.
DEBORAH GREY: Tim, Sr. said that while they were living in Oak Grove, all hell broke loose. Mom would go on these rampages --
RICK HUBBARD: Object to hearsay. She can describe something --
THE COURT: Yeah, I think -- keep moving.
CASEY SECOR: Just tell the jury in your own words what types of things Senior found when he could come home during that period of time.
DEBORAH GREY: He would find -- and this is while she was married to husband number three, Phillip Caliendo, that the house had been trashed, that she had been on some sort of rampage. And on one occasion when he came home, he heard that his stepfather, Phillip, was in the hospital where he had had a heart attack.
CASEY SECOR: So that marriage last a very short period of time?
DEBORAH GREY: It was short.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And why does it end?
DEBORAH GREY: I'm not sure exactly why it ended. Roberta ended up back with Larry.
CASEY SECOR: Right.
DEBORAH GREY: And I think -- the sense that I got was that despite the financial advantages that she had to be with Mr. Caliendo, her heart pulled her back to Larry Thornsberry.
CASEY SECOR: At this point in the social history, what year are we in approximately?
DEBORAH GREY: It's about 1977, and that's the point when Ms. Thornsberry came back together with Larry and Little Larry was born, the only child of Larry Thornsberry and Roberta Thornsberry. The other children are by Ted Montaine.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And Senior is -- Tim, Sr. is about how old? He's a teenager at this point?
DEBORAH GREY: He was about 12 when his little brother was born.
CASEY SECOR: And the violence and the threats and the substance abuse you described about Roberta and Larry's first marriage, does that again appear in their second marriage?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes, it does. It continues.
CASEY SECOR: And Tim, Sr. lives with this as sort of somewhat his normal life for --
DEBORAH GREY: That's right. That is his normal.
CASEY SECOR: And this goes on for another several years, is that right?
DEBORAH GREY: It goes on well into the birth of Tim, Jr. and then, intermittently, from then on, yes.
CASEY SECOR: Now, you have -- a part of what you've done is interviewed people yourself in this case?
DEBORAH GREY: I have.
CASEY SECOR: And what have you noticed about this family? Obviously, a lot of things that you're talking about are upsetting, troubling things. But did you find that there's a strong sense of love and commitment in this family as well?
DEBORAH GREY: There is a strong sense of love and commitment. And I'm impressed by that every time that I'm around them. They have been through a lot, but there is a lot of love and a lot of caring there between these folks.
CASEY SECOR: Tim, Sr., he leaves school at about age, I think, 16?
DEBORAH GREY: Around 16.
CASEY SECOR: All right. And can you just tell us what your social history told you about why that happened?
DEBORAH GREY: The records did not start to be available on Tim, Sr. until he got into junior high and they showed him as having some difficulties. He was being followed by a school social worker for unknown reasons. And they noted that he had times of just staring off into space. Then when he got into the ninth grade, he had 50 absences, which is about ten weeks of absences. They passed him, nonetheless, and the next year, tenth grade, he had 40 absences within that first semester and then just stopped going to school for lack of interest is what they said.
CASEY SECOR: And is that -- based on his life experience at that point, was that surprising to you that he was starting --
THE COURT: Keep moving.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
CASEY SECOR: We'll go to Tim, Sr. and Cynthia, who the jury has heard about a little bit. They're Tim's biological parents, right?
DEBORAH GREY: Correct.
CASEY SECOR: And when did they meet approximately?
DEBORAH GREY: They came together when they were both about 16 years old. I think both of them had come out of school by then and they met at a bar somewhere on the outskirts of Chicago.
CASEY SECOR: So that's 1980 when they come together and meet. I just want to go back briefly and have you tell the jury what your social history told you about what had happened to Cynthia in her life from the time she was born to 1980 when she meets Senior and sort of use the genogram to help us see that.
DEBORAH GREY: I'm trying. There we go. So this is the mother, Cynthia, here. And up here is her father, Domingo, and her mother, Maggie. And as you can see, Cynthia is one of nine children. The information that I received through her psychiatric records, which give some history, is that she was sexually molested for the first time at age three by a stranger and then intermittently molested over the years by other men, including her father. Her father fathered a child with her oldest sister, up here. Her father had a lifelong history of alcohol problems with regularly getting intoxicated and becoming violent in the home. He also was into a form of voodoo called Santeria. And what she reported at some point was that he would put her in a closet in the dark with a dead chicken bleeding down on top of her as some sort of ritual. That he kept skulls in the room, that he had jars with human fetuses and fingers. To a little girl, anyway, that's what those looked like. So she came from her own set of difficulties.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. And her father, Domingo Renado, he was not always in the home. He was back and forth to Texas. Is that correct?
DEBORAH GREY: One of her psychiatric records later said that it seemed to the psychiatrist he only came back to town long enough to impregnate the mother and then he would leave again. And his substance-abuse-related charges are largely from Texas showing that he spent a fair amount of time there.
CASEY SECOR: We'll go back later on and talk about what else in Cynthia's records were particularly relevant to you. But how is it that -- well, Cynthia ends up living in the Jones -- or the Thornsberry home, I guess, is that right?
DEBORAH GREY: There came a time where Cynthia started staying at the Thornsberry house and Roberta thought that was kind of strange. So they called Cynthia's mother and said your daughter is over here and the mother said that's fine, she can stay. And she did.
CASEY SECOR: And she was how old at this point?
DEBORAH GREY: She was 16.
CASEY SECOR: As was Senior?
DEBORAH GREY: More or less, yeah. They're about ten months apart.
CASEY SECOR: And is this around the time when they get pregnant with Tim, Jr.?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes. They got pregnant some time around March of 1981.
CASEY SECOR: And does your -- does your social history tell you about how Cynthia was at that point, whether people saw things about her that were odd?
DEBORAH GREY: Roberta had seen a few things that struck her as strange. Like, she would never eat with the family. She would never be in the same room alone with Larry. She would give things to the girls, to Tim's little sister, and then steal them back again. Just things that struck her as kind of strange.
CASEY SECOR: And do those behaviors get -- or do they increase once she gets pregnant with Little Tim?
DEBORAH GREY: They did increase somewhat. Roberta found her one time in the closet cuddled and crying and saying her father was coming to get her. She found her standing and staring at herself in front of the mirror and she couldn't seem to tear herself away.
THE COURT: Let's keep moving.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
CASEY SECOR: And once Tim, Jr. is born to Cynthia and to Senior, how does she react to this new baby?
DEBORAH GREY: Within a couple of days of coming home from the hospital, she told Roberta that she wished that baby would just shut the F up. What family members noticed was that she seemed kind of hollow and empty when she was around the baby. She didn't seem to be very interested in the baby. There were times that she would put the baby in a locked room, leave the baby there screaming and crying and wouldn't go take care of the baby, baby Tim, and wouldn't let Roberta go take care or Tim take care of the baby either. She refused to change his diapers at times and refused to let Roberta do that, despite the fact that he was crying. There were times that she refused to feed the baby because she said she didn't want a fat baby. There were times that she gave Little Tim laxatives because she said she wanted to cleanse his soul. There were times that she would put the baby in a bathtub with icy water and then leave the baby there because she wanted him to learn to listen. And then there were other times that she would put the baby in winter clothing in the middle of a hot Chicago summer saying that she didn't want the baby's skin to see light. So her behaviors over time became increasingly abusive and increasingly neglectful towards the baby.
CASEY SECOR: And you're saying baby, we're talking about Tim?
DEBORAH GREY: The baby is Tim, yes.
CASEY SECOR: You created some demonstratives with sort of condensed versions of the information from different periods of times that I'd like to use.
CASEY SECOR: But I think I should probably approach with the Solicitor, if I may? (Whereupon, a bench conference was held in the presence of the jury but out of the hearing of the jury.)
THE COURT: They're showing me some things pursuant to my directions. There's eight volumes. They're trying to condense it more efficiently. They prepared these demonstrative evidence exhibits highlighting a lot of the information in there. They're going to be shown to you on the overhead, but they're not going to be introduced in evidence, so you won't have them in evidence. It's just to help streamline the testimony, that's all.
CASEY SECOR: Ms. Grey, these demonstratives you made, I think they represent the different homes that Timmy lived in and the things that are relevant to you from the perspective of a social worker about those homes, is that right?
DEBORAH GREY: It represents what the people who raised him brought to that raising as a result of what they had been through in their lives, how were they prepared to parent this infant when he came home from the hospital.
CASEY SECOR: And the first one -- I think this is the first one, yeah, this is the first one. That's a picture of the actual home that Tim, Jr. came home to, right?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes.
CASEY SECOR: And where in that house were Tim, Sr. and Cynthia and Tim, Jr. living?
DEBORAH GREY: They were living in the basement of that house and Roberta and Larry and the other children, the ones that were still at home, were living in the upstairs of that house.
CASEY SECOR: And some of the things that you -- you've touched on some of the things that are already up there, but any others that we should discuss right now for purposes of this timeframe?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes. This was one of those instances where someone had told me a story and I actually found a couple of police reports that gave an even more complete story than what I had been told. And the story was that when Tim was about seven months old and in the house, this house, his dad and mom got into an altercation that started off with some pushing and then his dad choked his mom for several seconds. When she broke loose, she went to run downstairs, which she did, and came downstairs and the pushing and shoving continued and then he pushed her in the side of her face. She said at that point, she wanted to take the baby and leave and they wouldn't let her take the baby, so she left and went to her mother's house. Police reports show that two days later, she came back to the house with her sister demanding to get Little Tim and was refused. In the house at that point were Tim, Sr., Roberta and, I believe, one of Tim, Sr.'s daughter -- one of Roberta's other daughters. Cynthia, Tim's mother, got into an altercation with Roberta and the daughter tried to intervene and stop her from slapping and punching her mother. At the same time, Timmy's aunt went downstairs and climbed into the house through a basement window, grabbed baby Timmy and then climbed out another window and took off running, at which point, the police arrived and started chasing them and apprehended her. So Timmy's mom was charged with battery on the second account. His dad was charged with battery on the first account and her sister was charged with criminal trespassing on that second account. So the first seven months of his life, there's documented exposure of some of this physical violence that's been described.
CASEY SECOR: And this incident when the police came, this was after Cynthia had started exhibiting all of these bizarre behaviors and her neglect and abuse towards Timmy?
DEBORAH GREY: It was just starting.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
DEBORAH GREY: She was still with the family for another couple of years after that, in and out.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. Now, there are periods of time when Senior and Cynthia are still married that she disappears with Tim, Jr. for periods of time. Tell us what you know about that.
DEBORAH GREY: There were times when Cynthia would take off and she'd be gone for days and they wouldn't know where she was. It was a real concern to Little Tim's grandmother, who told her son that she thought that Cynthia was freaking nuts and that she shouldn't be allowed to be alone with the baby and yet, she would disappear for several days on end with the baby. I actually had the opportunity to meet with Cynthia several months ago and she told me that during this period of time, she was prostituting and that her husband was aware of that. And she also told me that --
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Keep moving. A -- she was dancing at a strip club.
THE COURT: We're getting too detailed.
CASEY SECOR: Okay.
CASEY SECOR: Tim, Sr. and Cynthia, I believe you already said that they stayed together, despite the problems that they're having, right?
DEBORAH GREY: That's right.
CASEY SECOR: And do they get pregnant again with another child?
DEBORAH GREY: They did.
CASEY SECOR: And tell us what your social history and interviews with various people -- or how has that informed you?
DEBORAH GREY: They were living back in the home with Roberta at that point. They were sort of in and out during these two and a half years that they were together. And Cynthia was fairly far along in her pregnancy. She was in the bathroom taking a bath and called out. When Roberta went into the bathroom, there was --
THE COURT: That's too much detail. That's really -- A She was taken to the hospital and she lost the baby.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And what does your social history say about what people in the family that witnessed that, Roberta and Tim, Sr., what did they think?
DEBORAH GREY: They believed that she had self-aborted.
RICK HUBBARD: Your Honor, I object.
THE COURT: We're getting -- I had wanted to kind of minimize that. Keep moving. Lost the baby. Please keep moving.
CASEY SECOR: We are about what year approximately, Ms. Grey, at this point?
DEBORAH GREY: Tim's parents were together until he was about two and a half years old.
CASEY SECOR: Okay. And how does the issue of custody get resolved between Tim, Sr. and Cynthia over Tim, Jr.?
DEBORAH GREY: There came a time when Cynthia and Little Tim just disappeared. Tim, Sr. went home and the apartment that they were sharing was empty and nothing was in there but a cake in the middle of the floor. He didn't hear anything from Cynthia until several weeks later when she called from Florida asking if he would post her bail, didn't know where Timmy was. Ultimately, found Tim, Jr. at the maternal grandmother's house. And that's the point in which he did a custody petition, an emergency custody petition to take temporary custody.
CASEY SECOR: And, ultimately, did he get custody?
DEBORAH GREY: He did.
CASEY SECOR: He did. And Tim was about how old at that point?
DEBORAH GREY: Tim was close to three years old at that point.
CASEY SECOR: And does -- what role, if any, does Cynthia have in Tim, Jr.'s life from the age of three forward?
DEBORAH GREY: Cynthia was not physically present in Tim's life for his entire childhood. He didn't see her again until he was in his 20's. She remained a constant issue for him in terms of how he thought about her from that time on.
CASEY SECOR: When he's three years old and Cynthia leaves, who becomes his, sort of, default mother?
DEBORAH GREY: Roberta does.
CASEY SECOR: And is he living with Roberta still and Larry, Sr. at this point?
DEBORAH GREY: I think over the next several years, there's an independence and back to dependence with Roberta and her family. Tim's memory is that mostly he stayed with Roberta, although there were times that Tim, Sr. had housing of his own. Tim may have been there some on weekends. It's also Tim's memory that his dad worked out of town a lot. So he remembers Roberta as his mom and called her mom.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, ma'am. Around the ages of four and five when Cynthia's gone, what do the reports, police reports tell you about things that are going on in that home where he's growing up? Just a couple of examples, if you can.
DEBORAH GREY: When he was four years old, there's a police report that shows Roberta, again, suspected of shooting at Larry through the kitchen window. There is a police report from when he is five years old where both Roberta and Larry were arrested and convicted for possession of cannabis and cocaine. And Tim, Sr. recalls that the police came to the house to arrest them.
CASEY SECOR: And do your interviews and things that you've reviewed show you that there's still the violence and obscenities and the threats going on inside that family?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes. I talked to several family members who, on the one hand, emphasize how much love there is in this family, and on the other hand, emphasize how crazy it was at times. There were a lot of descriptions of activities that some of which were identical and some of which were similar enough they may have happened at a somewhat different time that went on in the family.
CASEY SECOR: And is it appropriate to move on to the next demonstrative that we have about Roberta's house specifically?
DEBORAH GREY: Yes.
THE COURT: I tell you what we will do. Let's take a break right now.
CASEY SECOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: This is a good place to stop for a few minutes. Step back to the jury room. Don't discuss the case. (WHEREUPON, the jury was excused from the courtroom for a break.)
THE COURT: Mr. Secor, the jury has got reservations at 12:30, so that's when we're going to stop. I doubt you'll be finished by them.
CASEY SECOR: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. At 12:30, we're going to stop.
RICK HUBBARD: At 12:30?
THE COURT: Yeah. And then we'll pick it back up.